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Mukraiser / Elban's Scepter - Minions summoned

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    #16
    That's from the trial I just ran. 252k dps from the toads. My suspicion seems to be accurate. They don't scale well as damage gets higher. This is from the same character, although it now has about 400 more CL after the event has ended. Sheet dps has increased between 200 and 300k since the event too. I do remember seeing a 6% and 8% specifically from the toads after a couple trials, but I don't remember their specific dps number. When my damage was lower, they were comparable to the amounts from mirrors. But, I just use them for the defense, not their offense. They form a nice wide U that catches a lot of projectiles as long as I stand behind them. If I venture out, that's when I run into trouble.
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      #17
      Originally posted by Nhat View Post
      (What am I getting myself into... )
      When you get your methodology defined let me know. I have a couple of Diedres and Muks.

      Something like this?
      - strip all gear except for X or X+Y
      - run a test in Training Grounds (with specifically defined parameters) and collect data
      - report test conditions and data, and run it through a number cruncher to normalize out the differences

      EDIT: I don't currently have an Elban Scepter
      VUFO ZEBE ZAQI 1381 -|- Gethi, mage, & Kisheli, XP mage

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        #18
        Imagine a cookie-cutter Apprentice Mage, CL 1386. With a Celestial Mukraiser. Single target legendary training grounds. Arcane Missiles on auto-attack. 3 Archer sidekicks. This is the best case scenario for the (up to 9 observed) Mukraiser summons, who can just free-fire with impunity.

        5 minutes of very consistent numbers later:
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        Swapped on a 9% Diedre's which is 0.5% lower DPS. Keep in mind my attack speed is consistent 6.43:

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        First, why is the total damage the same...

        Staring at these numbers, I feel like I'm really just seeing the high minimum damage of Mukraiser being dominant, more than any other factor.
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          #19
          Originally posted by Trouble View Post
          First, why is the total damage the same...
          You reached the Int32 wrap-around, at which point, the value stopped making sense - this is the reason why I normally do my tests with no equipment and minimal stats. You're interested in the percentage of the damage done, not the actual value itself - lower base values means less chance of hitting the wrap-around.

          Thanks for the data.

          Edit: although it works fine if you're only focused on the "Per Cast" values - interesting to see such variation with Endar's and Robin's attacks though...
          Last edited by Nhat; 07-25-2018, 02:51 AM.
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            #20
            Originally posted by Nhat View Post

            You reached the Int32 wrap-around, at which point, the value stopped making sense - this is the reason why I normally do my tests with no equipment and minimal stats. You're interested in the percentage of the damage done, not the actual value itself - lower base values means less chance of hitting the wrap-around.

            Thanks for the data.

            Edit: although it works fine if you're only focused on the "Per Cast" values - interesting to see such variation with Endar's and Robin's attacks though...
            It is because both Endars are on the chart as one.

            In case anyone was curious, the Necronomicon which was equipped in both tests performed as expected, and failed to cough up a single skeleton.

            Ok so then Muk: 4,079,572,768
            Diedre: 4,158,753,300

            I would not be surprised to find out more rigorous testing says they are all good, and it just depends on if you want to maximize DPS to the highest %, have meatshields that kite with you, or meatshields that pin down mobs but are worthless against bosses. And that it is really just that simple.
            Last edited by Trouble; 07-25-2018, 03:40 AM.

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              #21
              Originally posted by Trouble View Post
              It is because both Endars are on the chart as one.
              Was looking at the "Per Cast" value, which ranged from 51.5K to 58.5K - guess Endars were really unlucky (getting the lower end of the weapon damage) and Robin was very lucky (getting the higher end of the weapon damage) during the Diedre's run.

              In case anyone was curious, the Necronomicon which was equipped in both tests performed as expected, and failed to cough up a single skeleton.
              Yep, as expected, which also means Elban's Scepter is only testable in Trials - which gives you less control...

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                #22
                The int32 data type wrap-around bug occurs in The Gauntlet as well. It seems like this would be an easy fix in the code. Just dimension those variables with a data type that goes higher in total value. If this were Visual Basic they would be "Long" or "Decimal", I believe.
                VUFO ZEBE ZAQI 1381 -|- Gethi, mage, & Kisheli, XP mage

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                  #23
                  Now let's add Singularity in the equation?
                  Since Singularity procs the (6)Apprentice set's Immolate. I assume that Deidre's effect with also apply? I never really tested it.

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                    #24
                    Finally got around to do some testing for this - with the usual: no gear/cp/abilities/companions setup

                    There are a few inconsistencies/more data needed things so I'll post what I have so far here if others want to do any follow-up for more data.

                    Testing Mukraiser in Training Grounds (Elban's Scepter will need to be tested in Trials, since you need to kill stuff...)
                    • Max # Summons => 9 (easy enough to test, just keep hitting and count the numbers)
                    • Attack Speed: Appears to be 1 per second base, not influenced by the Hero's Attack Speed, but does get boosted by Archers
                      • Lasts for 30 seconds, but moves around a bit before attacking, consistently getting 28 attacks in before dying (look at TG stat)
                      • Tested with base attack speed 1.59 and 3.73 - adding only Haste via CP => same 28 attacks before dying
                      • With 3 archers (Robin + 2 Endars), base 0 and 617.5 Haste => roughly 35 attacks, they moved around a bit because of the archers
                    • Damage:
                      • This is where things got a bit more interesting, there appears to be a base damage, and then it gets boosted by the Hero's weapon damage; going by the floating numbers for damage, so that Criticals can be ignored
                      • No Weapons (unequip after summon)
                        • Base +200% (added 55 Power to ensure proper +200%) => Hero's damage 3-3 => 902 - 1,000
                        • Similar numbers were seen when increasing up to +842% => Hero's damage 9-9
                      • With weapon:
                        • +217% (Displayed Per Hit damage, press the [+] button => 4238 => 1925 - 2103
                        • +526% => 8364 => 2907 - 3179
                        • +887% => 13185 => 4065 - 4403
                      • Looks like they're doing about 950 +25% of Hero's weapon damage - will need more time and data to confirm
                      • Setup:
                        • Reset everything
                        • start test with the lowest possible weapon damage, ie. only Mukraiser, and note the weapon damage value, then see floating numbers damage per hit from Merlok
                        • equip gear/add cp incrementally and recheck
                        • Note that we're only interested in the Per Hit damage, shown with the [+] display, not the full Damage value - although I suppose the proper min/max damage would probably be better, since it looks like there's range of damage from the Merloks as well.
                    • Health/Armor
                      • Another interesting one...
                      • They appears to be getting bonus from the Hero's Vitality and Armor boost, exactly what the numbers are is a bit tougher to find...
                      • Minimum Vitality from Synergy 85 - there's a bit of extra health for the Merlok to recover
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                      • Maxed Vitality boost 1134 - looks like half a bar of health
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                      • Similar things was seen with boosting Armor, the Merlok took less damage compared to un-boosted
                      • This one is a bit tougher to test, since with low Armor, your Hero is likely to die from the Damage quickly - the TG's AI focuses its attack on the Hero, so you need to run around and hope for a hit to the Merlok itself...

                    That's it for now, testing the Skeletons will need to be done in Trial 7, where the mobs are at Level 70 - will be a lot more annoying, so not sure if it's really worth the time or not. As mentioned, with the "on hit" spawning of the Merloks, they're much better than the Skeletons - but yeah, also as mentioned, if the Skeletons do A LOT more damage, then...


                    Edit:
                    Something to consider when comparing the summon's damage to Deidre's is that Deidre's extra attack CAN proc EVERY hit - yes, you're going to need to be very lucky, but it can, and can also NEVER proc, just to even it out Therefore you'll need to include your attack speed into the comparison, Coda can probably clarify this out a lot better than me, but you're looking at something like:
                    • Deidre Max: { Attacks per second } * { Weapon Damage } * 2 => extra attack proc every attack
                    • Deidre Ave: { Attacks per second } * { Weapon Damage } * 1.1 => 10% chance of doing extra attack per attack
                    • Deidre Min: { Attacks per second } * { Weapon Damage } => no proc
                    • There's also the increased Alacrity triggers from the extra attacks as well (maybe...)
                    • Mukraiser Min: { Attacks per second } * { Weapon Damage }
                    • Mukraiser Max: { Attacks per second } * { Weapon Damage } + 9 * [ 1 + 0.1 * # Archers ] * [ 950 + 25% * { Weapon Damage } ]
                    • And, also already pointed out, there's the additional "shields" from the Merloks themselves...
                    • Don't know if their attacks have a chance of triggering Alacrity or not, haven't tested yet...
                    Last edited by Nhat; 07-31-2018, 11:39 PM.
                    Eternium Files - links and details (Updated: 21 May 2019)

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                      #25
                      Diedres will always be king unless the Merloks/skeletons scale with your attributes. An extra attack from diedres every 10 attacks is essentially 10% base damage that scales as your grow. From what I’ve read so far in this thread that is not the case with merloks and skeletons. Just my two cents!
                      -A
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                        #26
                        Originally posted by seth.underwood View Post
                        Diedres will always be king unless the Merloks/skeletons scale with your attributes. An extra attack from diedres every 10 attacks is essentially 10% base damage that scales as your grow. From what I’ve read so far in this thread that is not the case with merloks and skeletons. Just my two cents!
                        -A
                        Tests show that Merloks damage, and Vitality & Armor, do scale with the Hero, so...

                        (Edit 2: removed since I did messed it up, it's 10% chance per hit for both Deidre and Mukraiser, will add calculations again once I have them...)



                        Edit:

                        Going with Trouble's result:
                        Originally posted by Trouble View Post
                        Ok so then Muk: 4,079,572,768
                        Diedre: 4,158,753,300
                        Which actually left out the Merlok's damage of 3,173 * 39,092 => 124,038,916

                        Resulting in "total" from Mukraiser of: 4,203,611,684 - which is higher than Deidre's
                        Last edited by Nhat; 08-01-2018, 04:12 AM.
                        Eternium Files - links and details (Updated: 21 May 2019)

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                          #27
                          Originally posted by Nhat View Post
                          Edit:

                          Going with Trouble's result:


                          Which actually left out the Merlok's damage of 3,173 * 39,092 => 124,038,916

                          Resulting in "total" from Mukraiser of: 4,203,611,684 - which is higher than Deidre's
                          Yeah, although in real play, they'll be constantly dying vs Diedre's "un-killable" procs (also keep in mind my Diedre's is not as good as my Muk, although it is very close). As both my trials were exactly 5 minutes, and attack speed doesn't vary, you can also remove the Diedre procs for a base dmg comparison (1864*2132694):

                          Diedre: 3,975,341,616 (adding the .5% difference in DPS between weapons=3,995,218,324)
                          Mukraiser: 4,079,572,768

                          I do feel like my Diedre underperformed in the test, but also still not sad at all that I chose a Celestial Mukraiser for my mage. And, looking for the simple answer first, do "we" know anything for certain about how procs are handled by the game engine?

                          Q: Can multiple categories (on attack, on hit, on kill) trigger off of the same attack? I would assume "on kill" is most likely to be different, as it triggers off of death vs an attack.

                          Q: Can the same general category of proc (ex: on hit) trigger multiple times from one attack?

                          Q: Are some types of procs exempt (like passive abilities, only procs every X attacks effects) from this type of limit?

                          Q: If there is a limit, what order are the procs "rolled" in?

                          The answers to these questions COULD explain why my Deidre underperformed, and would make effective use even more conditional. If Power Infusion and/or Intelgras are rolling first, and crowding out Diedre's chance to shine, it would explain why I wasn't seeing the expected +9% damage in my test, while the much higher probability 29% proc, and minion duration, on my Mukraiser could overcome being rolled last, and be less noticable. Knowing this information would also impact many other builds, for example, if Charged/Piercing Shots are getting in the way of Intelgras or Hailstorm procs... we'd want to know!

                          I definitely feel like experiences in other games have taught me to ignore, and never count on, minion/summon damage, as one basic attack on my part is usually much more impactful. Anyone who was in love with their first Necromancer in D2 got a rude awakening the first time their minion army encountered Andariel. These conceptions can be hard to let go of.

                          Appreciate the more in-depth testing and analysis, it is at the very least interesting to read.

                          I now definitely want to run the same test again, but focus on how Mukraiser's better base dmg interacts with the damage multipliers on active skills. In full gear, I don't mind using a calculator for totals.
                          Last edited by Trouble; 08-01-2018, 03:24 PM.

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                            #28
                            Interesting tests, interesting data.

                            Thank you all for this.

                            Keep testing!

                            Something that I, as a newbie, found interesting:

                            1 - My Necronomicon conjures up many more skeletons when I'm without Mukraiser.
                            2 - With Necronomicon and Elban Scepter I have already invoked elite skeletons, in addition to the constant variation "warriors / archers".
                            3 - I prefer Mukraiser not for the damage, which I not observe, but for the frog's apparent defense ability (protecting me, not them) over skeletons.

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                              #29
                              Originally posted by Darth.LE View Post
                              3 - I prefer Mukraiser not for the damage, which I not observe, but for the frog's apparent defense ability (protecting me, not them) over skeletons.
                              Yeah for sure, the toads will stick with you as you pull out of combat and kite, absorbing alot of ranged hits, fireballs, and even getting out of Elban's AOE when you do. For a Mage, this behavior is quite valuable.

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                                #30
                                Muk procs on singularity. Maybe deidres does too?
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