Eternium
Eternium

Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Mukraiser / Elban's Scepter - Minions summoned

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Coda
    replied
    Originally posted by Purple Potato View Post
    I would do testing except my deidres is a celestial and I'm not going to make a celestial muk just to test ideas.
    I agree. Same for me. But if a Muk is "proven" to be better, or even "most likely better", I would make one.

    Kind of like we all switched away from FrostBeam back to Blink once the proof was there. Except that was easy... it didn't cost a Celestial cube.

    122 is in my sights.

    EDIT: I have a decent Legendary Muk and L.Deidre, to run tests. And my Warrior can use them too in case that ends up helping collect data.
    Last edited by Coda; 08-02-2018, 09:56 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Purple Potato
    replied
    Originally posted by Coda View Post
    If we could determine that the Merloks add X% damage, and then because of their meatshield, we can re-invest Toughness resources back into offense and get Y% more damage, then the total benefit is obviously X+Y.
    The thing is, toughness is needed more for bosses (at least on 123, for me, wouldnt be the case on 124 most likely) than for mob phase (personally, Mobile may be different, as might other playstyles).

    I would do testing except my deidres is a celestial and I'm not going to make a celestial muk just to test ideas.

    Leave a comment:


  • Coda
    replied
    I haven't yet taken the time to do tests like Nhat did here. So far only he and Trouble are doing testing and reporting results. Apologies if I missed someone else's numbers. I hope to add my results soon and that others will do so as well.

    MUKRAISER
    For the Mukraiser, I think that trying to quantify both the damage done from the Merloks and their Life & Armor is the way to go. The idea being, if the Merloks are a good meat shield, then you should be able reduce the hero's Life & Armor by the amount that the Merloks add, and then reinvest those resources into Damage.

    If we could determine that the Merloks add X% damage, and then because of their meatshield, we can re-invest Toughness resources back into offense and get Y% more damage, then the total benefit is obviously X+Y.

    If some Muk fans feel that they are able to do this (lighten up on Toughness a little), based on their experience (as opposed to tests and data) I would be interested in those opinions.

    ​​​​​DEIDRE
    For the Deidre, I think we all believe we that the hero's primary attack occurs 9-10% more often (whatever % your Diedre displays; that number is likely rounded to a whole # for display but is a decimal in the code). That's the easy part. Thus, damage from Arcane Bolts and Arc Lightning = ~1.09X

    Next, it might seem logical that the Blink Mirrors' primary attacks get the same increase.

    Then we might get the 9% boost on some or all of the secondary attacks, a.k a. Utilities/Spells (Singularity, Blizzard) such that these too are doing 9% more damage.

    Then what about the Companions' attacks.
    ~~~~~

    It would be very hard hard to measure all of this. Or impossible. Maybe it would be better to run more empirical tests like "average completion time" for a certain Trial Level and "how many times you died" (since we'd be adjusting Toughness).



    Leave a comment:


  • Trouble
    replied
    I tried some 1 min comparisons with full skill use, but the results vary based on how long I could keep the dummy inside the AOEs. Singularity moves it around alot, which messed with arcane hitting with all shots, too.

    Overall:

    Diedre was not getting more than 5% extra attacks, and the Blink clones were benefitting from 66% of them. I'd wonder if there is a ICD and they are proc blocking me, except I get low % of bonus attacks without them (vs expectation).

    Muk summons provided 1% of my total damage, way more than the traditional Archer henchmen.

    The meatshields still feel worth it to me.
    Last edited by Trouble; 08-03-2018, 01:57 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Purple Potato
    replied
    Originally posted by Nhat View Post
    More tests, but I think this falls into the "difficult to check" category.
    It wouldn't be that hard to test. Just get a deidres with no haste and it would be easy.

    Cast singularity in TG, with and without Deidres. See if there is a difference of # of attacks. (make sure the mob is in same spot, you are to, and it gets pulled the same distance before CC bar is full)

    I will do some testing maybe and could post a video of it if needed (screenshots work too though)

    Leave a comment:


  • Nhat
    replied
    Originally posted by Trouble View Post
    Yeah, although in real play, they'll be constantly dying vs Diedre's "un-killable" procs (also keep in mind my Diedre's is not as good as my Muk, although it is very close). As both my trials were exactly 5 minutes, and attack speed doesn't vary, you can also remove the Diedre procs for a base dmg comparison (1864*2132694):
    Yeah, the weapon's damage difference will affect test data, and will need to be accounted for, some how - which was the reason I have {weapon damage} noted in the calculation examples. On the "summons dying" side of things, if hit with an area attack, then they're pretty much useless, but if it's from single target attacks, then any Merloks/Skeletons dying means that much less damage to the Hero.


    I do feel like my Diedre underperformed in the test, but also still not sad at all that I chose a Celestial Mukraiser for my mage. And, looking for the simple answer first, do "we" know anything for certain about how procs are handled by the game engine?

    Q: Can multiple categories (on attack, on hit, on kill) trigger off of the same attack? I would assume "on kill" is most likely to be different, as it triggers off of death vs an attack.

    Q: Can the same general category of proc (ex: on hit) trigger multiple times from one attack?

    Q: Are some types of procs exempt (like passive abilities, only procs every X attacks effects) from this type of limit?

    Q: If there is a limit, what order are the procs "rolled" in?

    The answers to these questions COULD explain why my Deidre underperformed, and would make effective use even more conditional. If Power Infusion and/or Intelgras are rolling first, and crowding out Diedre's chance to shine, it would explain why I wasn't seeing the expected +9% damage in my test, while the much higher probability 29% proc, and minion duration, on my Mukraiser could overcome being rolled last, and be less noticable. Knowing this information would also impact many other builds, for example, if Charged/Piercing Shots are getting in the way of Intelgras or Hailstorm procs... we'd want to know!
    And thus we run tests, and tests, and tests some more - until we're exhausted, or the devs give us the answer

    I recall mentions of most procs in the game are "per attack", there are some that have an internal cooldown timer to prevent them getting applied too often. There was no mention, that I can recall anyway, of things potentially "blocking" each other.

    We can do limited testing with this: equip multiple "on attack" items, go with base attack speed => hit, pause, observe, hit, pause, observe, and repeat until you get multiple trigger or decide to give up. Unfortunately, the only thing we can do is proof that "those particular multiple triggers" are possible, the observed lack thereof doesn't mean that it isn't - because of the "chance of proc".


    I definitely feel like experiences in other games have taught me to ignore, and never count on, minion/summon damage, as one basic attack on my part is usually much more impactful. Anyone who was in love with their first Necromancer in D2 got a rude awakening the first time their minion army encountered Andariel. These conceptions can be hard to let go of.
    Never played the Necromancer in D2, I've never got the hang of summoning classes in general, always stuck to Warrrior types, so can't really relate. I have read that some game limits the damage of companions/summons on bosses, so that may be a factor.



    Originally posted by Purple Potato View Post
    Muk procs on singularity. Maybe deidres does too?
    Interesting, although if Deidre does proc for Singularity - which attack would you be getting an extra of? More tests, but I think this falls into the "difficult to check" category.



    Originally posted by Bounty View Post
    So what's the answer? Should I stick with my Diedre's or use my muk instead?
    Too early to tell, need more data... Also, the weapon's damage and attributes bonus will impact the decision as well, unless you have two that are almost identical...

    Leave a comment:


  • Bounty
    replied
    So what's the answer? Should I stick with my Diedre's or use my muk instead?

    Leave a comment:


  • Purple Potato
    replied
    Muk procs on singularity. Maybe deidres does too?

    Leave a comment:


  • Trouble
    replied
    Originally posted by Darth.LE View Post
    3 - I prefer Mukraiser not for the damage, which I not observe, but for the frog's apparent defense ability (protecting me, not them) over skeletons.
    Yeah for sure, the toads will stick with you as you pull out of combat and kite, absorbing alot of ranged hits, fireballs, and even getting out of Elban's AOE when you do. For a Mage, this behavior is quite valuable.

    Leave a comment:


  • Darth.LE
    replied
    Interesting tests, interesting data.

    Thank you all for this.

    Keep testing!

    Something that I, as a newbie, found interesting:

    1 - My Necronomicon conjures up many more skeletons when I'm without Mukraiser.
    2 - With Necronomicon and Elban Scepter I have already invoked elite skeletons, in addition to the constant variation "warriors / archers".
    3 - I prefer Mukraiser not for the damage, which I not observe, but for the frog's apparent defense ability (protecting me, not them) over skeletons.

    Leave a comment:


  • Trouble
    replied
    Originally posted by Nhat View Post
    Edit:

    Going with Trouble's result:


    Which actually left out the Merlok's damage of 3,173 * 39,092 => 124,038,916

    Resulting in "total" from Mukraiser of: 4,203,611,684 - which is higher than Deidre's
    Yeah, although in real play, they'll be constantly dying vs Diedre's "un-killable" procs (also keep in mind my Diedre's is not as good as my Muk, although it is very close). As both my trials were exactly 5 minutes, and attack speed doesn't vary, you can also remove the Diedre procs for a base dmg comparison (1864*2132694):

    Diedre: 3,975,341,616 (adding the .5% difference in DPS between weapons=3,995,218,324)
    Mukraiser: 4,079,572,768

    I do feel like my Diedre underperformed in the test, but also still not sad at all that I chose a Celestial Mukraiser for my mage. And, looking for the simple answer first, do "we" know anything for certain about how procs are handled by the game engine?

    Q: Can multiple categories (on attack, on hit, on kill) trigger off of the same attack? I would assume "on kill" is most likely to be different, as it triggers off of death vs an attack.

    Q: Can the same general category of proc (ex: on hit) trigger multiple times from one attack?

    Q: Are some types of procs exempt (like passive abilities, only procs every X attacks effects) from this type of limit?

    Q: If there is a limit, what order are the procs "rolled" in?

    The answers to these questions COULD explain why my Deidre underperformed, and would make effective use even more conditional. If Power Infusion and/or Intelgras are rolling first, and crowding out Diedre's chance to shine, it would explain why I wasn't seeing the expected +9% damage in my test, while the much higher probability 29% proc, and minion duration, on my Mukraiser could overcome being rolled last, and be less noticable. Knowing this information would also impact many other builds, for example, if Charged/Piercing Shots are getting in the way of Intelgras or Hailstorm procs... we'd want to know!

    I definitely feel like experiences in other games have taught me to ignore, and never count on, minion/summon damage, as one basic attack on my part is usually much more impactful. Anyone who was in love with their first Necromancer in D2 got a rude awakening the first time their minion army encountered Andariel. These conceptions can be hard to let go of.

    Appreciate the more in-depth testing and analysis, it is at the very least interesting to read.

    I now definitely want to run the same test again, but focus on how Mukraiser's better base dmg interacts with the damage multipliers on active skills. In full gear, I don't mind using a calculator for totals.
    Last edited by Trouble; 08-01-2018, 03:24 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Nhat
    replied
    Originally posted by seth.underwood View Post
    Diedres will always be king unless the Merloks/skeletons scale with your attributes. An extra attack from diedres every 10 attacks is essentially 10% base damage that scales as your grow. From what I’ve read so far in this thread that is not the case with merloks and skeletons. Just my two cents!
    -A
    Tests show that Merloks damage, and Vitality & Armor, do scale with the Hero, so...

    (Edit 2: removed since I did messed it up, it's 10% chance per hit for both Deidre and Mukraiser, will add calculations again once I have them...)



    Edit:

    Going with Trouble's result:
    Originally posted by Trouble View Post
    Ok so then Muk: 4,079,572,768
    Diedre: 4,158,753,300
    Which actually left out the Merlok's damage of 3,173 * 39,092 => 124,038,916

    Resulting in "total" from Mukraiser of: 4,203,611,684 - which is higher than Deidre's
    Last edited by Nhat; 08-01-2018, 04:12 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • seth.underwood
    replied
    Diedres will always be king unless the Merloks/skeletons scale with your attributes. An extra attack from diedres every 10 attacks is essentially 10% base damage that scales as your grow. From what I’ve read so far in this thread that is not the case with merloks and skeletons. Just my two cents!
    -A

    Leave a comment:


  • Nhat
    replied
    Finally got around to do some testing for this - with the usual: no gear/cp/abilities/companions setup

    There are a few inconsistencies/more data needed things so I'll post what I have so far here if others want to do any follow-up for more data.

    Testing Mukraiser in Training Grounds (Elban's Scepter will need to be tested in Trials, since you need to kill stuff...)
    • Max # Summons => 9 (easy enough to test, just keep hitting and count the numbers)
    • Attack Speed: Appears to be 1 per second base, not influenced by the Hero's Attack Speed, but does get boosted by Archers
      • Lasts for 30 seconds, but moves around a bit before attacking, consistently getting 28 attacks in before dying (look at TG stat)
      • Tested with base attack speed 1.59 and 3.73 - adding only Haste via CP => same 28 attacks before dying
      • With 3 archers (Robin + 2 Endars), base 0 and 617.5 Haste => roughly 35 attacks, they moved around a bit because of the archers
    • Damage:
      • This is where things got a bit more interesting, there appears to be a base damage, and then it gets boosted by the Hero's weapon damage; going by the floating numbers for damage, so that Criticals can be ignored
      • No Weapons (unequip after summon)
        • Base +200% (added 55 Power to ensure proper +200%) => Hero's damage 3-3 => 902 - 1,000
        • Similar numbers were seen when increasing up to +842% => Hero's damage 9-9
      • With weapon:
        • +217% (Displayed Per Hit damage, press the [+] button => 4238 => 1925 - 2103
        • +526% => 8364 => 2907 - 3179
        • +887% => 13185 => 4065 - 4403
      • Looks like they're doing about 950 +25% of Hero's weapon damage - will need more time and data to confirm
      • Setup:
        • Reset everything
        • start test with the lowest possible weapon damage, ie. only Mukraiser, and note the weapon damage value, then see floating numbers damage per hit from Merlok
        • equip gear/add cp incrementally and recheck
        • Note that we're only interested in the Per Hit damage, shown with the [+] display, not the full Damage value - although I suppose the proper min/max damage would probably be better, since it looks like there's range of damage from the Merloks as well.
    • Health/Armor
      • Another interesting one...
      • They appears to be getting bonus from the Hero's Vitality and Armor boost, exactly what the numbers are is a bit tougher to find...
      • Minimum Vitality from Synergy 85 - there's a bit of extra health for the Merlok to recover
      • Click image for larger version  Name:	Screenshot_2018-08-01-06-46-03.png Views:	1 Size:	182.6 KB ID:	109884Click image for larger version  Name:	Screenshot_2018-08-01-06-50-59.png Views:	1 Size:	261.1 KB ID:	109886
      • Maxed Vitality boost 1134 - looks like half a bar of health
      • Click image for larger version  Name:	Screenshot_2018-08-01-06-47-37.png Views:	1 Size:	291.2 KB ID:	109885Click image for larger version  Name:	Screenshot_2018-08-01-06-51-14.png Views:	1 Size:	262.7 KB ID:	109887
      • Similar things was seen with boosting Armor, the Merlok took less damage compared to un-boosted
      • This one is a bit tougher to test, since with low Armor, your Hero is likely to die from the Damage quickly - the TG's AI focuses its attack on the Hero, so you need to run around and hope for a hit to the Merlok itself...

    That's it for now, testing the Skeletons will need to be done in Trial 7, where the mobs are at Level 70 - will be a lot more annoying, so not sure if it's really worth the time or not. As mentioned, with the "on hit" spawning of the Merloks, they're much better than the Skeletons - but yeah, also as mentioned, if the Skeletons do A LOT more damage, then...


    Edit:
    Something to consider when comparing the summon's damage to Deidre's is that Deidre's extra attack CAN proc EVERY hit - yes, you're going to need to be very lucky, but it can, and can also NEVER proc, just to even it out Therefore you'll need to include your attack speed into the comparison, Coda can probably clarify this out a lot better than me, but you're looking at something like:
    • Deidre Max: { Attacks per second } * { Weapon Damage } * 2 => extra attack proc every attack
    • Deidre Ave: { Attacks per second } * { Weapon Damage } * 1.1 => 10% chance of doing extra attack per attack
    • Deidre Min: { Attacks per second } * { Weapon Damage } => no proc
    • There's also the increased Alacrity triggers from the extra attacks as well (maybe...)
    • Mukraiser Min: { Attacks per second } * { Weapon Damage }
    • Mukraiser Max: { Attacks per second } * { Weapon Damage } + 9 * [ 1 + 0.1 * # Archers ] * [ 950 + 25% * { Weapon Damage } ]
    • And, also already pointed out, there's the additional "shields" from the Merloks themselves...
    • Don't know if their attacks have a chance of triggering Alacrity or not, haven't tested yet...
    Last edited by Nhat; 07-31-2018, 11:39 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Radz
    replied
    Now let's add Singularity in the equation?
    Since Singularity procs the (6)Apprentice set's Immolate. I assume that Deidre's effect with also apply? I never really tested it.

    Leave a comment:

Working...
X