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Mukraiser / Elban's Scepter - Minions summoned

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  • Coda
    replied
    The int32 data type wrap-around bug occurs in The Gauntlet as well. It seems like this would be an easy fix in the code. Just dimension those variables with a data type that goes higher in total value. If this were Visual Basic they would be "Long" or "Decimal", I believe.

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  • Nhat
    replied
    Originally posted by Trouble View Post
    It is because both Endars are on the chart as one.
    Was looking at the "Per Cast" value, which ranged from 51.5K to 58.5K - guess Endars were really unlucky (getting the lower end of the weapon damage) and Robin was very lucky (getting the higher end of the weapon damage) during the Diedre's run.

    In case anyone was curious, the Necronomicon which was equipped in both tests performed as expected, and failed to cough up a single skeleton.
    Yep, as expected, which also means Elban's Scepter is only testable in Trials - which gives you less control...

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  • Trouble
    replied
    Originally posted by Nhat View Post

    You reached the Int32 wrap-around, at which point, the value stopped making sense - this is the reason why I normally do my tests with no equipment and minimal stats. You're interested in the percentage of the damage done, not the actual value itself - lower base values means less chance of hitting the wrap-around.

    Thanks for the data.

    Edit: although it works fine if you're only focused on the "Per Cast" values - interesting to see such variation with Endar's and Robin's attacks though...
    It is because both Endars are on the chart as one.

    In case anyone was curious, the Necronomicon which was equipped in both tests performed as expected, and failed to cough up a single skeleton.

    Ok so then Muk: 4,079,572,768
    Diedre: 4,158,753,300

    I would not be surprised to find out more rigorous testing says they are all good, and it just depends on if you want to maximize DPS to the highest %, have meatshields that kite with you, or meatshields that pin down mobs but are worthless against bosses. And that it is really just that simple.
    Last edited by Trouble; 07-25-2018, 03:40 AM.

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  • Nhat
    replied
    Originally posted by Trouble View Post
    First, why is the total damage the same...
    You reached the Int32 wrap-around, at which point, the value stopped making sense - this is the reason why I normally do my tests with no equipment and minimal stats. You're interested in the percentage of the damage done, not the actual value itself - lower base values means less chance of hitting the wrap-around.

    Thanks for the data.

    Edit: although it works fine if you're only focused on the "Per Cast" values - interesting to see such variation with Endar's and Robin's attacks though...
    Last edited by Nhat; 07-25-2018, 02:51 AM.

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  • Trouble
    replied
    Imagine a cookie-cutter Apprentice Mage, CL 1386. With a Celestial Mukraiser. Single target legendary training grounds. Arcane Missiles on auto-attack. 3 Archer sidekicks. This is the best case scenario for the (up to 9 observed) Mukraiser summons, who can just free-fire with impunity.

    5 minutes of very consistent numbers later:
    Click image for larger version

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    Swapped on a 9% Diedre's which is 0.5% lower DPS. Keep in mind my attack speed is consistent 6.43:

    Click image for larger version

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    First, why is the total damage the same...

    Staring at these numbers, I feel like I'm really just seeing the high minimum damage of Mukraiser being dominant, more than any other factor.
    Attached Files

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  • Coda
    replied
    Originally posted by Nhat View Post
    (What am I getting myself into... )
    When you get your methodology defined let me know. I have a couple of Diedres and Muks.

    Something like this?
    - strip all gear except for X or X+Y
    - run a test in Training Grounds (with specifically defined parameters) and collect data
    - report test conditions and data, and run it through a number cruncher to normalize out the differences

    EDIT: I don't currently have an Elban Scepter

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  • tshell
    replied
    That's from the trial I just ran. 252k dps from the toads. My suspicion seems to be accurate. They don't scale well as damage gets higher. This is from the same character, although it now has about 400 more CL after the event has ended. Sheet dps has increased between 200 and 300k since the event too. I do remember seeing a 6% and 8% specifically from the toads after a couple trials, but I don't remember their specific dps number. When my damage was lower, they were comparable to the amounts from mirrors. But, I just use them for the defense, not their offense. They form a nice wide U that catches a lot of projectiles as long as I stand behind them. If I venture out, that's when I run into trouble.

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  • Nhat
    replied
    (What am I getting myself into... )

    Give me a few days - at least now I know what to do with my Legendary Cubes from ANB #3 . Was going to go back to testing the Warrior's abilities, but since this have been "requested" I'll take a look. Been avoiding those weapons to be honest, don't know how my phone's going to hold up with all the summons.

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  • Darth.LE
    replied
    Originally posted by Trouble View Post

    Use Mukraiser for distraction and ablative armor, and consider the miniscule damage a bonus.
    That's what i do. Great shield against projectiles, and still stand around the dragon when she spits fireballs.
    I like a lot! But consider that my wizard is literally a glass cannon...

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  • Trouble
    replied
    Originally posted by Coda View Post

    I think the OP is asking that very question and looking for "proof" of the answer.

    All damage matters, whether against the mobs before the boss, or the boss. Higher damage means faster progress and a shorter completion time.

    I don't think there are very many Mukraisers on the top of the leaderboards, neither Mage nor Warrior. But I haven't looked in a while.

    However, other things we thought we were sure of, were wrong. Remember when everybody "knew for sure" that Frost Beam was the best vs. Blink?

    That's why I like projects like this -- if it can be "proven" -- which weapon does more damage.

    Another way to look at it, might be, to determine whether the Mukraiser minions absorb enough incoming damage that one can lighten up on Toughness and then invest those stat points that were in Vitality, into Power/Haste/CR.



    Yes, the question was mostly rhetorical, although I'll submit that damage vs the boss is of the highest importance, especially for a mage.

    It feels like itll be difficult to prove anything for certain when kiting style combined with minions made from balsa wood are big determiners in success. And then we start heading down the rabbit hole of of sidekick auras and their effects on summons. Is it better to stack three archers to haste those javelin throwing toads? But what about the sustain they get from warrior+healer auras???

    And what about the cost to all active skills and procs if you sacrifice any damage % to attain or buff these summons?

    Frost Beam was always a bad idea because it involves a self-imposed root. Time Warp increases survivability, but it doesn't slow the clock, making Blizzard DPS much more valuable.
    Last edited by Trouble; 07-24-2018, 07:39 PM.

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  • tshell
    replied
    Originally posted by Purple Potato View Post
    Any screenshot for this?

    I found they usually only do 100k DPS for me (with muk)
    No, I was kind of surprised they did that much though. It was on my ANB mage and I can't see the trial results from that anymore. But, it could have also been because I'm not that experienced with mage play style too. I watched your pulling videos and tried to replicate getting those massive pulls, but I just ended up going slower overall due to dying all the time. So my workaround was to do only a few groups at a time, that may be why my results aren't as expected. I'm working against smaller mobs than the typical mage player would.

    It probably doesn't scale well either. As in, the more damage you dish out, the less percentage your merlocks/skeletons are doing in comparison. So me, being not as skilled in mage, would have less character damage than if you played the same character. So my merlocks do a higher percentage of damage than yours would.

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  • troyguitar
    replied
    This is relevant to my interests, I'm debating between Mukraiser and Deidre's for my mage. The Mukraiser is fun, especially since you end up with a whole army when combined with the Necronomicon, but I suspect that Deidre's is "better" overall.

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  • Purple Potato
    replied
    Originally posted by tshell View Post
    In my purely anecdotal evidence, my merlocks would do about 5-8% of my total damage in the T90-95 range.
    Any screenshot for this?

    I found they usually only do 100k DPS for me (with muk)

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  • tshell
    replied
    In my purely anecdotal evidence, my merlocks would do about 5-8% of my total damage in the T90-95 range. I was not running a Necronomicon, so all the summoned minions were merlocks. They did similar damage as my mirror did, but, I admit that I was not the best at keeping my mirrors out all the time.

    I'm also pretty sure that there is a limit on summoned minions. Whether it comes from the Mukraiser or Necro shouldn't matter, you're only going to get so many out there. So if you run both, you aren't getting any more than you would with just one, exception being at bosses where only the Mukraiser will summon them.

    In my experience, the merlocks stand in a more useful alignment than the skeletons do. They tend to stand close together, about halfway between where I like to stand and the enemies, allowing them to take a lot of shots. The skeletons just don't work as well for me, but that might be just my preference.

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  • Coda
    replied
    Originally posted by Trouble View Post
    But does damage versus trash even matter?
    I think the OP is asking that very question and looking for "proof" of the answer.

    All damage matters, whether against the mobs before the boss, or the boss. Higher damage means faster progress and a shorter completion time.

    I don't think there are very many Mukraisers on the top of the leaderboards, neither Mage nor Warrior. But I haven't looked in a while.

    However, other things we thought we were sure of, were wrong. Remember when everybody "knew for sure" that Frost Beam was the best vs. Blink?

    That's why I like projects like this -- if it can be "proven" -- which weapon does more damage.

    Another way to look at it, might be, to determine whether the Mukraiser minions absorb enough incoming damage that one can lighten up on Toughness and then invest those stat points that were in Vitality, into Power/Haste/CR.




    Leave a comment:

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