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  • #16
    You presented only one set of stats for jewelry with little commentary about why those stats were presented, and what are the other options. This invites others to weigh in with other opinions. A good guide takes the bigger picture into consideration, not just your own perspective.

    In my opinion, the long game for high end players, should involve slowly acquiring Celestials, therefore no Vitality on jewelry (for a mage; it's different for W/BH). Or at most one piece with it as secondary. This is because you should target about 1100 total V and you can get ~900 without jewelry. Or, you could plan on replacing that piece (with V as P9), which is expensive and time consuming. Instead, until you get the Celestial(s), socket Emeralds. And/Or have V on some gear that can be reforged later, to a different stat.

    Your thread does not cover the pros and cons of various stats on jewelry. There are other threads that do, and those could be linked, or summarized. High end Mages need CD, CR, and AR the most. And XP if it's your grinder. Vitality should be the minimum necessary to not die, and the player should be continually challenging that lower limit by varying their play style. Power and Haste should be secondary concerns (for high end players because of CL points) and like Vitality, only be used as fill in secondary stats on jewelry.

    ​The fact that this is a valid opinion is backed up by the LB ranking of myself and Rivx, RoA, Purple ... all very highly ranked players in their day ... whom all take a similar approach. Rivx and I also collaborated on math/code/simulations to prove to ourselves what is the ultimate mage build. His CL optimizer came from his work on that.
    ​​​​​​
    A good guide is thorough and accurate, but also not so detailed or verbose as to bury the reader. I did not comment on this above, but your style is "conversational" so quite a bit longer than it could be, and still present the same amount of information.

    A good guide should also should be formatted well (fonts, colors, pics, links, headings, white space) to make it as much an "easy read" as possible.

    You seem to be aiming for "Guide Status" for this thread, and you have a decent start in that direction.
    VUFO ZEBE ZAQI 1381
    ~ Gethi, mage, TL109 mobile & TL121 PC
    ~ Kisheli, XP mage, TL112

    ~ ANB-beta, TL100 (#1); ANB1, TL116 (top 10); ANB2, TL110 (top 10);
    ANB3, TL112 (top 10)

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Coda View Post
      You presented only one set of stats for jewelry with little commentary about why those stats were presented, and what are the other options. This invites others to weigh in with other opinions. A good guide takes the bigger picture into consideration, not just your own perspective.
      With all due respect, I think I did take the bigger picture into consideration. At no point did I state that mine was the only way to do it. Where I provided references or advice, I took time to caution that that was the way I chose to do it and that players need to take into consideration their own circumstances. The section about using "The Canyon of Whispers" to farm XP? That wasn't something I did, that was something I saw Purple Potato comment on after the last ANB. So I quite demonstrably and consciously tried, where I could, to offer advice and thoughts that were not my own perspective.

      The opinion you weighed in with was "Vitality as a p9? 'No'". You didn't offer anything else until this comment. Almost all the your other comments, I acted on or am currently trying to decide how best to act on.

      The OP is long enough as is, had I tried to discuss even a few more option regarding jewelry, how much longer would it have gotten? Again, the goal was to give people salient pieces of info to act on, provide some simple examples that they could use as a model to tweak and do it without writing a dissertation. It was longer than I wanted as is, but I wouldn't remove any of the current info, unless it was in the course of re-writing entire sections to give a fuller picture. In other words, this piece will likely only get longer.

      Originally posted by Coda View Post
      In my opinion, the long game for high end players, should involve slowly acquiring Celestials, therefore no Vitality on jewelry (for a mage; it's different for W/BH). Or at most one piece with it as secondary. This is because you should target about 1100 total V and you can get ~900 without jewelry. Or, you could plan on replacing that piece (with V as P9), which is expensive and time consuming. Instead, until you get the Celestial(s), socket Emeralds. And/Or have V on some gear that can be reforged later, to a different stat.
      These are all fantastic points and, in retrospect, I can't believe I didn't say anything about celestial equipment.

      Originally posted by Coda View Post
      Your thread does not cover the pros and cons of various stats on jewelry. There are other threads that do, and those could be linked, or summarized. High end Mages need CD, CR, and AR the most. And XP if it's your grinder. Vitality should be the minimum necessary to not die, and the player should be continually challenging that lower limit by varying their play style. Power and Haste should be secondary concerns (for high end players because of CL points) and like Vitality, only be used as fill in secondary stats on jewelry.

      ​The fact that this is a valid opinion is backed up by the LB ranking of myself and Rivx, RoA, Purple ... all very highly ranked players in their day ... whom all take a similar approach. Rivx and I also collaborated on math/code/simulations to prove to ourselves what is the ultimate mage build. His CL optimizer came from his work on that.
      ​​​​​​
      These are all fantastic points and, on the whole considering the sources involved, certainly better than the generic advice I gave. Perhaps I should have consulted more about it, but I didn't want to bother people for something I was writing because, well, I didn't want to be a bother. Even so, I still stand by the advice I gave since I've enjoyed a fair amount of success pushing trials.

      That said, where are these other threads? I'm happy to link them but simple searches aren't turning up much. (You still haven't explained what was wrong with my gemstone farming advice, btw. At this point, my only thought is you mean i should tell players they should use a BH with4/2 Assault gear on SoA? Nor have you provided a link to the thread(s) you mention. And yes, I have searched but again the search is stymieing me because my keywords aren't quite right, I guess.)

      Originally posted by Coda View Post
      A good guide is thorough and accurate, but also not so detailed or verbose as to bury the reader. I did not comment on this above, but your style is "conversational" so quite a bit longer than it could be, and still present the same amount of information.

      A good guide should also should be formatted well (fonts, colors, pics, links, headings, white space) to make it as much an "easy read" as possible.

      You seem to be aiming for "Guide Status" for this thread, and you have a decent start in that direction.
      This is dangerously close to personal attack territory, but experience instructs me that is not what's intended. I will say this piece was designed more than you realize. Most of it was organized and written long before I sat down to type it up. The conversational tone you take issue with was a deliberate choice because, while wordy, it also reads easier and can make a long piece "feel" shorter since it pulls the reader through it. As opposed to a wall of text with numbers, figures, charts and dry discussion... zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz. Was it the right way to do it? IDK, although I've received some compliments regarding how easy it is to read.

      My goal or aim, as I previously stated, was to write something that helped people get off to a good start as a new mage. To answer the questions that constantly come up here in the forums or in discord and serve to give them things to think about going foward as they progress, without telling them that "IT MUST BE DONE THIS WAY." Whether it ended up as an official guide, while I suppose it would be nice feather in my cap, was not a motivation for writing the OP. Status is not something I care to pursue, anywhere at anytime.

      Finally... Thank you for all the input. I have a lot to consider trying to work all the extra input into this and I'm, quite frankly, not sure how to do it yet. My choices are a complete reorganization and rewrite of what I have here or to shoehorn the new info in and make this even longer. All the info you've advised will necessarily make the OP longer, so some kind reorganization or even a companion piece that fleshes out these topics will be required. If you have easy access to the links and threads you refer to, I'd much appreciate it if you could provide them.
      Last edited by lama75; 09-27-2018, 03:18 PM.
      CL 2K+
      Mage- Ladim(#9 Live LB), Proxima(XP)
      TL119 in 9:14 on mobile (iphone8)

      Mage Guide

      Comment


      • #18
        One thing which I'd like to add when it comes to talking about gear:

        For a beginner (which I'll loosely define as "until you are pushing from t90-100"), you're using the gear you can find/farm, and filling holes in your stats with reforges and, quite often, jewelry.

        It may be better for this guide to talk about stat targets, more than specific stats on gear. Defining where you want to be, and where, as Coda explained above, where you can sacrifice as your skill improves. Let the 100+ discussion take place elsewhere, focus on what is needed NOW, and lightly touch on things to keep in mind for later.

        Just my two cents

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Trouble View Post
          One thing which I'd like to add when it comes to talking about gear:

          For a beginner (which I'll loosely define as "until you are pushing from t90-100"), you're using the gear you can find/farm, and filling holes in your stats with reforges and, quite often, jewelry.

          It may be better for this guide to talk about stat targets, more than specific stats on gear. Defining where you want to be, and where, as Coda explained above, where you can sacrifice as your skill improves. Let the 100+ discussion take place elsewhere, focus on what is needed NOW, and lightly touch on things to keep in mind for later.

          Just my two cents
          Are you referring to progress goals? For instance, "By trial 80, you should have a full set of App gear."? Or do you mean "Look for App6 gear with stats of about X"" Just not clear on what you mean by "stat targets."
          CL 2K+
          Mage- Ladim(#9 Live LB), Proxima(XP)
          TL119 in 9:14 on mobile (iphone8)

          Mage Guide

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by lama75 View Post

            Are you referring to progress goals? For instance, "By trial 80, you should have a full set of App gear."? Or do you mean "Look for App6 gear with stats of about X"" Just not clear on what you mean by "stat targets."
            Yeah, total stats on all gear. Something like:

            As you progress towards trial 80, try to focus your gear and CL points towards these totals:

            Attacks per second: 6+
            Crit chance: 34%+
            Ability Rate: 40%+ cooldown reduction
            Toughness: 100k+ from Vitality, NOT armor, block, parry, or dodge
            Life on Hit: 1600+
            Movement speed: both pants and boots, max bonus from CL points

            As you farm trial 80 in advance of pushing towards trial 100, work towards pushing your Ability Rate towards 50%, getting you Crit Chance to 40%, etc...

            There is still value in callouts regarding named/set items, but I think presenting stat targets as a whole would help newer players wrap their heads around the concept better.

            Edit: DUH! And Crit damage on every slot, lol.
            Last edited by Trouble; 09-27-2018, 03:24 PM.

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            • #21
              OK- will need some help/ consensus on what those numbers might look like. I gave that information for endgame levels, but breaking it out in terms of what you might need at a particular trial level (say pre-80, 80-90, 90-100, 100-110, 110+ - not even sure those would be correct) will take a bit of doing. I've started to find some of these threads Coda was referring to, I think, and they offer some of this kind of info but in a bit more of a nebulous way.
              CL 2K+
              Mage- Ladim(#9 Live LB), Proxima(XP)
              TL119 in 9:14 on mobile (iphone8)

              Mage Guide

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Coda View Post
                In my opinion, the long game for high end players, should involve slowly acquiring Celestials, therefore no Vitality on jewelry (for a mage; it's different for W/BH). Or at most one piece with it as secondary. This is because you should target about 1100 total V and you can get ~900 without jewelry. Or, you could plan on replacing that piece (with V as P9), which is expensive and time consuming. Instead, until you get the Celestial(s), socket Emeralds. And/Or have V on some gear that can be reforged later, to a different stat.
                Just going to say that while I agree vitality should not be primary on jewelry (CR and CD or AR and CD should be) I also have 1244 Vitality and still possibly need more to pass Magroth on 123. (103k health on the "+" button). And to lama, I would say CR takes priority over Vit as P9 (or a S5) because vitality can easily be gotten through sockets or celestials while CR can only come from sockets and rings.

                Vitality should be the minimum necessary to not die, and the player should be continually challenging that lower limit by varying their play style. Power and Haste should be secondary concerns (for high end players because of CL points) and like Vitality, only be used as fill in secondary stats on jewelry.
                While I also agree that vitality should be the minimum to survive, I have reached a point where the mob phase is ~4 minutes and boss phase is ~6 minutes ( on 122, it was ~6:20 summon, 9:05 kill) and the hard part is surviving the boss fight. I had an amazing 123 map with an easy summon of ~6:30 but miss timed my blink cooldown by .5 seconds and died to mobs. After that I died to magroth anyway after a 5:30 summon because I just can't survive auto attacks (It seems that there is a crit auto attack outside of enrage, but maybe not and he just actually does over my full HP bar worth of damage).

                All this to say that Vitality needs to be low enough to survive boss phase (meaning you are so good at surviving mob phase that the surviving challenge is in the boss fight and I'm not trying to sound proud when saying that), but you also need LoH at a certain point since you will have so much HP, adding more just delays the death by 5k vit or whatever.


                One more thing, TBD for life in gemstone farming
                Soa takes more RL (real life) time with slightly less gem cost.
                ANB #1- Mage Rank 17..... T107 in 9:47
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                • #23
                  lama75 I’m in the CL400 range with Kvasir as my main mage. I’ve found the OP to be very helpful to get my head around what I’ve been doing and learning. Different opinions on jewelry are always informative. I’ve spent a lot of time reading here. The conversational tone was different than many others and helped me understand other posts. Thanks lama75 for sharing your insights.

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                  • #24
                    Amazing write up and very useful information. Cheers for this!

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                    • #25
                      Please forgive my ignorance, but I'd like to ask why fireball ability isn't considered that good any more ? I thought it used to be great? Isn't it better against bosses than lightning or AB?

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                      • #26
                        At lvl10, fireball does 230% damage to a small area, with some other secondary effects.

                        At lvl 10, AB does 125% per bolt and fires 6 bolts per attack.

                        So AB will do more damage to the boss per attack.

                        AL, at level 10, boosts attack speed and damage of other attacks so it's considered the best second primary attack.

                        Fireball is fine to use for story mode or lower trials, but for pushing trials it isn't considered to be as effective as AB.
                        CL 2K+
                        Mage- Ladim(#9 Live LB), Proxima(XP)
                        TL119 in 9:14 on mobile (iphone8)

                        Mage Guide

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by lama75 View Post
                          At lvl10, fireball does 230% damage to a small area, with some other secondary effects.

                          At lvl 10, AB does 125% per bolt and fires 6 bolts per attack.

                          So AB will do more damage to the boss per attack.

                          AL, at level 10, boosts attack speed and damage of other attacks so it's considered the best second primary attack.

                          Fireball is fine to use for story mode or lower trials, but for pushing trials it isn't considered to be as effective as AB.
                          Thanks! So between AB and AL, why is AL the best SECOND primary attack? I mean by taking into account the attack speed boost, plus the increased damage target receives, won't it surpass AB in terms of total damage dealt? (Talking about comparison between the two, AB vs AL, without switching attacks)
                          Last edited by nightshade3; 10-12-2018, 04:12 PM.

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by nightshade3 View Post

                            Thanks! So between AB and AL, why is AL the best SECOND primary attack? I mean by taking into account the attack speed boost, plus the increased damage target receives, won't it surpass AB in terms of total damage dealt? (Talking about comparison between the two, AB vs AL, without switching attacks)
                            Because it's attack speed and damage boost carry over to your other primary attack.

                            It works as follows: start attacking with AL. By maintaining an attack with AL for about 3s, you will start the attack speed and damage boost, which last about 5s. Now, switch over to your other attack(fireball, frostbolt, AB). The attack speed boost will remain in effect after switching, and the second attack will also get the damage boost started during the AL attack. If you switch back to AL for 1 attack and then back to the other attack, you can maintain the boosted attack speed and damage buff for as long as you are attacking.

                            So AL can be used to boost the strength of any other attack.
                            CL 2K+
                            Mage- Ladim(#9 Live LB), Proxima(XP)
                            TL119 in 9:14 on mobile (iphone8)

                            Mage Guide

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Contributing to what lama75 wrote, in v1.2, the AL buffs stack (5 times and 10 times, respectively) and then the stack lasts 5 seconds, and can be refreshed for another 5 seconds with 1 attack.

                              Thus, attack with AL for 10 attacks. At 5.00/sec attack speed, that's 2 seconds. You may calculate for yourself how long 10 attacks take, at your AS. High end Mages tend to run 6.5 to 7.0, which of course means 10 attacks takes less than 2 seconds.

                              In v1.3.__ (up to 13 so far) the stacking and or 5 second duration is bugged. It doesn't work properly. Or if what is now going on is "on purpose" then it has been massively nerfed.

                              The bug might be fixed with some later version after v1.3.13, we simply do not know.


                              VUFO ZEBE ZAQI 1381
                              ~ Gethi, mage, TL109 mobile & TL121 PC
                              ~ Kisheli, XP mage, TL112

                              ~ ANB-beta, TL100 (#1); ANB1, TL116 (top 10); ANB2, TL110 (top 10);
                              ANB3, TL112 (top 10)

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                              • #30
                                lama75 Very nice. Well done.

                                The re-working here is much clearer to read and understand and helps focus in on specifics if players just need a portion of the information to nudge them in the right direction and is also well laid out for new-comers who may need to read the whole thing.

                                Personally, I'm glad it's not over-burdoned by formulas and maths which can sometimes put people off reading. Trying to put things down neatly and reduce some of the complex background maths into easier to digest numbers is not a simple task and you've managed to do that.

                                From my own experience, I know how mind-numbing it can be to read and re-read and re-read again, cut/paste/colour/highliight and to organise the info in a clear manner, accept criticism and feedback and not take it personally, and just finding the time to get it all done and you have managed that very well.

                                Great job.

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