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I made pure CD% rings and I regret it. Here is why and last post about PWR that will blow your mind.

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  • I made pure CD% rings and I regret it. Here is why and last post about PWR that will blow your mind.

    Ok,
    First of all, DPS CAN NOT be used to actually calculate your damage and there are many reasons why. I want to go into power a bit more because after making a 120% CD ring last night I realized I messed up and the way power has been calculated is WRONG.

    I have brough this up MANY times, yes, and in 1 instance I thought I was proven wrong until I've realized something last night AFTER making this damn ring wasting 3 60% CD rings and a ton of 59.9%.

    First of all, the extra 20% or whatever you get off of the rings is not worth the loss in stat points, if I added it correctly(some what just went quick) it is 70 points(or maybe it was 60? lol) stat points you lose per jewelry. So if one was to make all pure CD% jewerly you would gain around 60% CD% but lost out on 180-210 stat points.

    Now back to power. As far as I know and have seen in the comments were we have talked about it, we have been basing power and CD off of your base damage(weapon dmg + power boost). That is COMPLETELY wrong.

    As a mage, we all know singularity is the ability to go to. When we have been calculating CD% with power we have been basing it off base damage but that is WRONG. Singularity does 200% of base damage. So the correct way to calculate your damage would be ->( base damge x 200%)CD.

    my damage(the pros have a lot more) with zero points into CL on the first page of stats is 20980-27278.
    Singularity 200% makes this 62940-81834

    With 1000% CD that is 692340-900174
    If I add 60% more CD that is 6922740-949274.4

    Now if I was to add 180 power instead of the 60% CD%
    Base 22566-29340
    200% Singularity is 67698-88320
    1000% CD% = 744678-971520

    Now that might not seem like a huge difference, but it does show you the difference.

    Where the HUGE difference comes into play is with RotS. Now you are doing 800% of base damage instead of the 200% of singularity. I am a bit lazy to do the math but as you can see the 200% already gives a moderate boost so 800% will give a HUGE boost.

    This is why I believe power should be high as possible. I rather have a 40% CR with 1000% CD than a 45%CR with 1060 CD(yes I know it is higher). I would not invest the extra 20% points into CD with jewelry because power gives a bigger boost. Another thing I want to look into is CR vs Haste. If you have 45% CR and say 7 APS, will dropping that 45% CR to 40% CR and investing into Haste be worth it. If you can go from 7 APS to say 7.5. That is more: Deidre's(10% chance for extra attack), more chances to proc both immolate and RotS, lowering spell duration which gives you more cast per run so more 200% boost from singularity, more 800% from RotS, more total life from LoH etc. etc.

    Just for example on the CR with numbers mentioned above. The math based on 10 attacks:
    45% CR and 7 APS is 7 APS x 10 seconds = 70 attacks / 10(Deidre's) = 7 + 70 = 77 x .45 = 34.65 crits per 10 seconds.
    40% CR and 7.5 APS x 10 = 75 + 7.5 = 82.5 / 10 = 8.25 + 75 = 83.25 x .4 = 33.3 crits per second

    Now I don't know how many points it takes to make 45% CR go down to 40% and then if those points were added to the already 7 APS if it would make it 7.5. Might not even be close. But with what I am guessing. You are criting only 1.35 more times in 10 seconds but lose all the other benefits ultimately losing a ton of damage via procs and spells. If someone can confirm what the difference is when you take the points away from CR at 45% and make it 40% and then add those points to Haste when you are at 7 APS that would help alot.

    Any other things to add?
    Thank you,
    Andrew

  • #2
    Just wanna say a few quick things. So ur saying u made a legendary ring with only CD on it? If so then ur missing out on all the dps you could be doing if u had the 3 other stats on that ring. If u did make a legendary ring with only CD on it I cringe for u lol, and all the wasted resources + time that went into crafting it.
    YIFO WULU QESA 2324

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    • #3
      Originally posted by Fightthepower1 View Post
      Just wanna say a few quick things. So ur saying u made a legendary ring with only CD on it? If so then ur missing out on all the dps you could be doing if u had the 3 other stats on that ring. If u did make a legendary ring with only CD on it I cringe for u lol, and all the wasted resources + time that went into crafting it.
      No, what he is saying is the current "perfect ring" with 1 pure (301 stat) + 120% CD and 2 other low stat attribute.
      Although, I still did what Nhat's guide has to say (9,9,5,4) and stick with it.
      Last edited by Altheo 42; 01-08-2019, 05:15 AM.
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      • #4
        Originally posted by andrewcb88 View Post
        Ok,
        First of all, DPS CAN NOT be used to actually calculate your damage and there are many reasons why. I want to go into power a bit more because after making a 120% CD ring last night I realized I messed up and the way power has been calculated is WRONG.
        The DAMAGE number shown in the game is purely based on your standard weapon attack - which is actually impossible to do, since you must be using an Attack ability which also does more than 100% of the damage anyway. But it's the only number that we can actually see and so it's the one that we work with, your attacks and utilities will be doing more, depending on which one you use and how often you can use them - thus Ability Rate plays a significant role in the actual damage output.


        Now back to power. As far as I know and have seen in the comments were we have talked about it, we have been basing power and CD off of your base damage(weapon dmg + power boost). That is COMPLETELY wrong.

        As a mage, we all know singularity is the ability to go to. When we have been calculating CD% with power we have been basing it off base damage but that is WRONG. Singularity does 200% of base damage. So the correct way to calculate your damage would be ->( base damge x 200%)CD.
        Correct, again, it was simply the easiest way to calculate, and you actually never mentioned anything about abilities and such in the other discussions - neither did I, since those were purely hypothetical comparisons. If you're going to go with a full and proper calculation, then things get a lot more complicated...


        my damage(the pros have a lot more) with zero points into CL on the first page of stats is 20980-27278.
        Singularity 200% makes this 62940-81834

        With 1000% CD that is 692340-900174
        If I add 60% more CD that is 6922740-949274.4

        Now if I was to add 180 power instead of the 60% CD%
        Base 22566-29340
        200% Singularity is 67698-88320
        1000% CD% = 744678-971520

        Now that might not seem like a huge difference, but it does show you the difference.
        Yes, but that's not a valid comparison - 60% CD == 90 Power, not 180; although I suppose for a Primary on Jewelry, you're looking at 121.3% CD vs 301 Power (so that's 60 vs 150)

        And also, I believe we simply left it as "it depends on where you're at" for whether Power was better than CD - the one example of CD better than Power I showed was to simply clarify the "it depends" part. I don't think anyone really claimed that CD is ALWAYS better than Power. The reasons for going with CD on Gear & Jewelry is that you can put more CL into Power than you can in CD (maxed at +200%),


        Any other things to add?
        You keep on going back to zero CL - that's not the point, you leave the CL where it is at and then calculate what will happen if you add 60% (or 121.3%) CD vs 90 (or 301) Power.

        There's no point in keep on going back to the starting point and proving that Power is better, we already know that it is better in certain situations. The thing to work out when trying to optimize your hero is which attribute is better to add/subtract based on where you're at now.

        I'll look into the various calculations when I have some time, in order to get a proper comparison of things...
        Last edited by Nhat; 01-08-2019, 05:28 AM.
        Eternium Files - links and details (Updated: 21 May 2019)

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        • #5
          Simply put, early on in your hero life, 1%CD is worth about 2 power. Near end game, 1 %cd is worth about 4 power. So easy math comparison, 4*120% CD, you get 480 power equivalent. Thus for endgame, CD should be primary always.
          GAQO KITO REZO 1934

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          • #6
            Slower, more powerful hits should be better for active abilities. Attacks per second maintains uptime on crucial procs and provides sustain. Crit affects damage output significantly. You need all of them.

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            • #7
              Beyond what others have already said, the Power .vs CD is a false dichotomy. There are two primary stats on jewelry. One of the main benefits of making CD one of them is that it doesn't use any gemstones, so you can have max 121 CD and max 301 Power (or other gemstone stat) on the same piece, plus the two secondary stats.

              In theory, Power+CD would be the optimal choices for primary, since everything else is diminishing returns, though I'm not sure it's actually possible to hit the optimal levels on all the other stats.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by andrewcb88 View Post
                As a mage, we all know singularity is the ability to go to. When we have been calculating CD% with power we have been basing it off base damage but that is WRONG. Singularity does 200% of base damage. So the correct way to calculate your damage would be ->( base damge x 200%)CD.
                Singularity does 200% weapon damage. Weapon damage in this case is base damage (what the number is on your weapon) x Power % (power/2). After I read that I skimmed the rest and don't really have anything to add.
                CD is then that number above x CD %.
                I could be wrong but this is my understanding as of awhile ago.
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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Nhat View Post

                  The DAMAGE number shown in the game is purely based on your standard weapon attack - which is actually impossible to do, since you must be using an Attack ability which also does more than 100% of the damage anyway. But it's the only number that we can actually see and so it's the one that we work with, your attacks and utilities will be doing more, depending on which one you use and how often you can use them - thus Ability Rate plays a significant role in the actual damage output.




                  Correct, again, it was simply the easiest way to calculate, and you actually never mentioned anything about abilities and such in the other discussions - neither did I, since those were purely hypothetical comparisons. If you're going to go with a full and proper calculation, then things get a lot more complicated...




                  Yes, but that's not a valid comparison - 60% CD == 90 Power, not 180; although I suppose for a Primary on Jewelry, you're looking at 121.3% CD vs 301 Power (so that's 60 vs 150)

                  And also, I believe we simply left it as "it depends on where you're at" for whether Power was better than CD - the one example of CD better than Power I showed was to simply clarify the "it depends" part. I don't think anyone really claimed that CD is ALWAYS better than Power. The reasons for going with CD on Gear & Jewelry is that you can put more CL into Power than you can in CD (maxed at +200%),




                  You keep on going back to zero CL - that's not the point, you leave the CL where it is at and then calculate what will happen if you add 60% (or 121.3%) CD vs 90 (or 301) Power.

                  There's no point in keep on going back to the starting point and proving that Power is better, we already know that it is better in certain situations. The thing to work out when trying to optimize your hero is which attribute is better to add/subtract based on where you're at now.

                  I'll look into the various calculations when I have some time, in order to get a proper comparison of things...
                  I have no choice but to use CL because I don't have the gear to use as a comparison. But wouldn't the math still add the same? If I kept all CL points and then switch out 2 different rings. I just take out CL because it is what I have to work with atm.

                  If all perfect stat CD gear that is 540% + 200% from CL so 740% CD.
                  Then either 301%CD from jewelry for a total of 1041% or 364%CD from jewelry or a total of 1104%.
                  For some reason you get 200% CD even when you are naked and no CL points added.
                  So max CD is 1304(rounded) and next is 1241(rounded)

                  What I meant about the jewelry is you either get 121.3 CD or you get 100.3%. With each piece of 121.3% jewelry you lose out on 74 stat points. When totaled for all 3 pure CD jewelry you get 63.6% CD but lose out on 232 stat points total.
                  Or you do 100.3% CD and you gain 232 stat points when all 3 jewelry is added compared to the pure CD jewelry.
                  For example a 301/224/187/121.3CD jewelry would be a pure CD jewelry or a (9,9,5,4) 301/270/214/100.3%CD jewelry.

                  Another big gainer to damage with power is glass cannon.


                  For example and we will use some even numbers here:
                  2000 weapon damage + .2(glass cannon) = 2400
                  2400 x 1400% from power > 2400x15 = 36000
                  36000 x 3 (200% singularity) = 108,000
                  108,000 x 14.04(1304CD%) = 1.516m

                  232 points for power like mentioned above about jewelery = 116% or x .216
                  2000 x .216 = 476(weapon dmg added from power)
                  2476 x .2 = 495.2
                  495.2 + 476 + 2000 = 2971.2
                  2971.2 x15(1400% power) = 44,564
                  44,564 x 3(singularity) = 133,692
                  133,692 x 13.41(1241CD%) = 1.793m

                  With RotS a x9 multiplier instead of the x3 you do 3x the damage. That is 277k damage with singularity and 831k with RotS. That damage adds up REAL fast. You are doing almost 20% more damage this way. Check my math. LMK

                  Thank you



                  Add 232 points into power as mentioned above which is 116% or x .216. 2000 x 2.16 = 432 points added to weapon damage.
                  2432


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                  • #10
                    With algebra, it is straight forward to use the formula for Damage, and determine the relationship between CR, CD, and Power. Then, you can calculate exactly the change in Damage vs. any of the three.

                    Having done this in great detail, I can tell you that it's pretty much what Arionthe summarized above.

                    However, things are more complicated than just the Damage number would imply. Attack Speed (Haste) and Casting Speed (Ability Rate) are extremely important "variables" ... though you can do some math on those too.

                    As a mage one of the biggest factors is not related to math at all. It's
                    • skill in grouping mobs ... so AOE utilities and procs are more effective
                    • skill in dodging attacks ... so you can keep your toughness lower and reinvest those stat points in Offense
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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Coda View Post
                      With algebra, it is straight forward to use the formula for Damage, and determine the relationship between CR, CD, and Power. Then, you can calculate exactly the change in Damage vs. any of the three.

                      Having done this in great detail, I can tell you that it's pretty much what Arionthe summarized above.

                      However, things are more complicated than just the Damage number would imply. Attack Speed (Haste) and Casting Speed (Ability Rate) are extremely important "variables" ... though you can do some math on those too.

                      As a mage one of the biggest factors is not related to math at all. It's
                      • skill in grouping mobs ... so AOE utilities and procs are more effective
                      • skill in dodging attacks ... so you can keep your toughness lower and reinvest those stat points in Offense
                      I agree to this 100%.

                      Which leads me to wonder what is the perfect haste/APS to CR ratio? It seems a lot of people try getting 45% or more CR. I am at 40% right now. I am wondering how many points into CR it takes to go from 40% to 45%? And if this points were added to haste instead would you crit more overall within a time frame. The 1500 AR for 50% seems about right, you could go for like 53-54% which is in the 1600's I believe(maybe somewhere in the 1700 for 55%???) which isn't too many points. I am wondering if you are at 7 APS if you had 45% CR and then took off enough CR to make it 40% and then added that to haste instead what would your APS be?

                      Also, for you pros, a lot of this is trivial, you got really good gear, high CL etc. etc. but when it comes to someone in my position or lower, this stuff can make a huge impact. Esp when we don't have any celestial items.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by andrewcb88 View Post

                        I agree to this 100%.

                        Which leads me to wonder what is the perfect haste/APS to CR ratio? It seems a lot of people try getting 45% or more CR. I am at 40% right now. I am wondering how many points into CR it takes to go from 40% to 45%? And if this points were added to haste instead would you crit more overall within a time frame. The 1500 AR for 50% seems about right, you could go for like 53-54% which is in the 1600's I believe(maybe somewhere in the 1700 for 55%???) which isn't too many points. I am wondering if you are at 7 APS if you had 45% CR and then took off enough CR to make it 40% and then added that to haste instead what would your APS be?
                        The formula for AR is AR/ (AR+1500)
                        The formula for CR is (I think) CR/ (CR+3000)
                        Haste has the biggest diminishing returns and maybe someone knows the forumla for haste, but I dont.
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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Purple Potato View Post
                          Haste has the biggest diminishing returns and maybe someone knows the forumla for haste, but I dont.
                          Attack Speed calculation is the most annoying, due to the number of factors involved, not just Haste:
                          • Base Attack Speed = 1 + 6 x Haste / ( Haste + 1000 )
                          • Actual Attack Speed = { Base Attack Speed } x ( 1 + Synergy Bonus + 0.1 x { # of Archers } ) x { if using 2 weapons ? 1.3 : 1 }
                          • Then you get the boost from Arc Lightning/Frenzy on top (based on previous tests, could have changed...)
                          Eternium Files - links and details (Updated: 21 May 2019)

                          Eternium Guides:

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Nhat View Post

                            Attack Speed calculation is the most annoying, due to the number of factors involved, not just Haste:
                            • Base Attack Speed = 1 + 6 x Haste / ( Haste + 1000 )
                            • Actual Attack Speed = { Base Attack Speed } x ( 1 + Synergy Bonus + 0.1 x { # of Archers } ) x { if using 2 weapons ? 1.3 : 1 }
                            • Then you get the boost from Arc Lightning/Frenzy on top (based on previous tests, could have changed...)
                            Nhat,
                            Can you put that formula with actual numbers? Say 3 archers. Also, is a book consider a weapon in the calculation? I suck at understanding formulas until I see it with numbers and the calculations done lol.
                            Thank you!

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Purple Potato View Post

                              The formula for AR is AR/ (AR+1500)
                              The formula for CR is (I think) CR/ (CR+3000)
                              Haste has the biggest diminishing returns and maybe someone knows the forumla for haste, but I dont.
                              Yes it does but it also effects more than just attack speed whereas CR is just CR/more damage. With the diminishing returns(and they are huge), you still get more APS which is:
                              more chances to crit
                              more LoH
                              more procs(RotS and immolate, extra attack etc. etc.)
                              abilities can be used more often(I forgot what this was called lol.....alacrity??)
                              not sure if there is anything else I am missing?

                              So I kind of wonder if the diminishing returns are worth it when you add all that up and were to reduce CR for more APS.

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