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    Medals are Medals

    ☣Note☢: My title was changed to "Medals are unfair" when relocated to this forum. I reverted it to the more aptly named "Medals are Medals" because I'm not completely against medals, just against the fact that it's impossible to catch up with someone who started before me if they continue to accrue them. Thanks for reading fellow Eterniumers.. ?

    I've held my tongue for a while on this. I have no idea when medals were implemented, but the whole thing grinds me as someone who didn't start on day one of this game. There's a guy with an additional 600 armor, 140 Power, 70 Cr, 55% CD, 60% Exp & Gold, 140 Vit, 70 Hate, & 280 LoH. That essentially two level 77 items at the start of each AnB. I'm not disparaging them, I'm sure they've put time & money in to earn them, but it is an absolute joke to pit other players against such a monstrosity. Our only hope for displacing them is that they quit playing or die.

    I want to hear how or if the developers plan to level the playing field. I'm sure you can't just get rid of medals now that people have essentially paid for them, but as an individual I can't bring myself to spend another cent on a game where I hold a pair of deuces against their royal flush. I'm sure you can think of a system that minimizes their influence.
    Last edited by gravano; 10-07-2021, 10:04 AM.

    #2
    I believe medals were introduced when they changed the ANB format into the 3 Leagues, Feb 2019 - the plus side was that CT became available to most players, now as Trial Level milestones instead of leaderboard ranking, and those Ephemeral jewelries definitely helped a lot too... but yeah, there are a number of players that have been against the "apply to all events" style of medals since the beginning, myself included...

    "Official" announcement: https://forum.makingfun.com/forum/th...ord-discussion
    Eternium Files - links and details

    Eternium Guides:

    Comment


    • Ozymandius
      Ozymandius commented
      Editing a comment
      +1 on making ANBs a "no medals allowed" zone. We don't allow gold from main account to transfer to ANB hero, so there must be a way to lock out medals from those events as well.
      Last edited by Ozymandius; 09-29-2021, 12:40 PM. Reason: typo

    • Teebs
      Teebs commented
      Editing a comment
      Ozymandius , I have advocated - and still think the best solution (though implementing it might actually require some coding magic!) is for everyone to start out Bronze with No medals - and the only medals transferred to Silver and Gold are those which are earned within that ANB league. It would also require that ANB Silver and Gold 'should' be delayed until the Medals were issued. It seems entirely reasonable to be able to use Bronze Medals in Silver and Bronze and Silver Medals into Gold.

      To me - that would best represent the spirit of the name - "A New Beginning".

      ... KTB

    • gravano
      gravano commented
      Editing a comment
      I appreciate your sentiment. Also, as I started playing in April (I believe), the only way I've gotten the medals I have is because I bought a lot of gems to gain the advantage necessary to compete for the top spots. I imagine if I were to compete au natural like the first few times playing AnB the results would not be as impressive, but at least I wouldn't feel so terrible about it. I don't mind the devs making money from the game, in fact I understand and support that, but it shouldn't be so cost-prohibitive to be a top player. I have a strong gut feeling that they've lost revenue over time by eliminating a chunk of the player base who couldn't compete. Some percentage will spend.

    #3
    You've got it easier than ever before. It used to take years to get to CL2100. Now you can do it an ANB. Also, you used to only get one celestial for TL100 when TL100 was hard and then you got another for finishing Top 100. Also, without medals, you still compete in the top 100. Have a look at some of the top guys second accounts, still able to achieve top 10 in AnB's without medals.

    Comment


    • gravano
      gravano commented
      Editing a comment
      How would I know whether someone has a second account? I can determine who someone is in relation to their main account's name by checking medals. You are referencing a separate account tied to a different e-mail, I assume, since we can only create one character for each AnB. Also, I do not recall the last time I saw anyone on the BH leaderboard place in top 10 without a single medal. After a quick look through the top 100 on the BH season leaderboard, only 3 players had zero medals, 2 of whom are using the new buffed gear to gain advantage before the rest catch up. The vast majority of the other 97 had multiple medals of different types. You'll need to be specific.

    #4
    Much ado about medals... We typically see these sort of complaints from new players who have not had time to earn many medals yet. On the surface, it does look like a "rich get richer" scheme (i.e., medals make it easier to level up a new hero). However, what most players don't understand is that, by design, there are diminishing returns from medals as you progress into higher trials. Truth is medals do not make as much of an impact on the leaderboard as the 'have nots" think that they do. What you have to factor in is that there is a third variable at play, player game knowledge and skills. Players with high levels of game knowledge and skills consistently finish at the high end of the leaderboard, which means that they inevitably earn lots of medals. However, the causal relationship is not that having medals put those players on the leaderboard, it is that skilled players earn more medals that their lower skilled counterparts. Medals and high finishes are both caused by having high game knowledge and skills.

    My advice is to read the forums [and/or Discord], ask questions, hone your playing skills and tactics, and build a hero that will earn you medals as well. What makes Eternium great is that there is a host of experienced players willing to share their game knowledge and tactics with new players. Take them up on it, then you can write the next rebuttal to the "medals are unfair" argument.

    Comment


    • Teebs
      Teebs commented
      Editing a comment
      There seems a tendency for players without medals to over play their impact and for players with medals to underplay their impact.

      ... KTB

    • Ozymandius
      Ozymandius commented
      Editing a comment
      Alas, the grass is always greener on the other side of the fence...

    #5
    Ozymandius , I get that's how you may interpret things. I'd sure like to see the data on that showing they have a minimal effect. I have a hard time wrapping that around my head that the 45 medal level guy is just constantly outpacing everyone in AnB after AnB, perhaps you can show me some times a player with no or very few medals has ranked in top 5?

    I'm not looking to just crack the top 100, I'd like a fair shot at no. 1 at some point. I've put in the play time (see my pictures), and have a good bit of general & esoteric knowledge about this game's strategem, especially with BH.

    if I start off with a +60% additional to both XP & Gold, someone would have to get, what, level 10 gear before they could offset my advantage? But by the time I've got level 10 gear, they may already be level 45, whizzing through the early game and gaining a huge head start over the vast hordes. This time matters, because you need to essentially drop your experience & gold hoarding when the 2 hours left mark hits, reforge all your gear, then push. That extra time bought them several additional bonuses - new items, higher CL, and the luxury of pushing for TL levels unattainable to anyone without said advantage (or a plush bank account).

    . There may be diminishing returns, but that is not as powerful a force as exponential growth when the clock is ticking. I'd love to be proved wrong. P.S. - how many medals do you have?
    Attached Files

    Comment


    • Ozymandius
      Ozymandius commented
      Editing a comment
      The problem with providing the data you are seeking is that it simply does not exist. If there was a switch that let you turn off the effect of your medals, then you could collect the data but currently, once you accept a medal, there is no way to turn off its effect. You could however, create a baseline of data using your existing hero then compare that performance baseline to the same hero after adding in any new medals that you earned [just be careful not to accept any additional CLs or make any other changes to gear or enchantments since that would bias your results]. Run the highest trial that you can complete multiple times and record the data (e.g., damage stats and completion times), then accept the medal(s) from the latest event and repeat the same trial the same number times. Would you expect to see higher damage stats or complete the trial any faster? How many seconds, if any, would that medal allow you to shave off your trial completion time? I think that you would be disappointed by the results.

      What I can provide you is some anecdotal evidence. I routinely use virtually the same 6pc Fire Lily Warrior XP farming set-up in ANBs as documented by Nhat in his forum posts. As a true model of maintaining a level playing field, Nhat has never installed any medals on his account. If your hypothesis is correct, then by virtue of my medals, I should beat the pants off of his Warrior, since I have medals, and he does not. Also, my advantage should increase over time as I accept additional medals from events. Yet in our comparisons of XP earned and levels completed in event after event, both of our Warriors perform at about the same level with any small differences mostly attributed to having slightly better (or worse) weapon damage. I imagine that to be true for just about any player who uses the same strategy.

      You worry about not being able to level up a hero as fast as someone with more medals. There a lots of strategies for decreasing your time to leveling your ANB hero up to level 70. You may want to check out the Discord Shootout discussions on Discord for ways to speed up your time that, by the way, have nothing at all to do with medals. But beware, those couple of minutes shaved off your level up time are also less meaningful to where you end up at the end of the event than you want to believe.

      I wonder, what will finishing in the #1 spot on the leaderboard give you that it is worth ranting about the unfairness of life caused by a very slight manipulation of the game that is limited by its very design. If you believe that medals are so important, then by all means go out and earn as many as you can; just do not expect it to make a difference in your placement on the leaderboard. You already have more CLs than many players who have been playing the game for several years; otherwise, I suppose you would be arguing that having more CLs is an unfair advantage. Yet you are well into the CL plateau that renders CLs almost meaningless. Your gear is also better than most, so I suppose arguing about gear is equally meaningless at this point. As you mentioned, you are as knowledgeable about game strategy as those above you on the leaderboard, so game knowledge and strategy is also meaningless. What if you discover that your quest for more medals is equally meaningless?

      As the Zen monk says to the young apprentice who is so eager to learn everything right away, "If you want some of my tea, you must first empty your cup."

    #6
    gravano , let me make a complaint against new players. Not sure how long you have been playing this game? However, I have been playing it for nearly 4 years. Yet look at my images below, you have more champion points than I do, seem like you have an unfair advantage over me.

    Comment


    • gravano
      gravano commented
      Editing a comment
      See below post.

    #7
    Ben playing since january 2020. And i obtain allthose medal. Ive 8nvest only real cash for the extra storage and only one season pass.
    so i dont think new player have huge disadvantage. Its normal in a rpg to be stronger a bit when u start playing manyyear bfr another
    Attached Files

    Comment


      #8
      Ozymandias Very well, I already collect a lot of statistics in an Excel workbook that have given me some interesting insights into the game; some that I doubt few may be aware of. For instance, at my CL I've found it very worthwhile to exchange the DMG + XP jewelry for ones with only XP. I'm sure others are aware of this, but on ladder resets and during AnB I've yet to spot anyone wearing pure XP (I say ladder resets since, for a time, we can see people farming on lower TLs). Based on some input from this forum & my own records this increases my run time some, but the extra XP gained is very noticeable, and my XP per second increased definitively. As you might expect for someone who has invested an unhealthy amount of time in this game, I have read many forum posts, guides, and I've even asked questions. I still learn new things, and there is a chance that the top crop know things I don't - I'm more humble than you might think.

      When I last checked the leaderboards (admittedly at the same time that the event timer expired), I was no. 8 on BH leaderboard for Gold AnB. Given that was with about 3 days left, I can expect about 3 - 4 different types of medals once they get around to skimming the cheaters from the mix. I'll use my current stats as a baseline, and do due diligence and let you know my results; however, also speaking anecdotally, I have always found that I increase my current TL in regular mode after getting medals. Perhaps it's medals with the added XP & celestials, or it could be a placebo effect. As for you vs. Nhat, I don't know your medal stats - how substantial a difference are we talking? How much time does it take for you to reach level 70 vs. him?

      What would the #1 spot give me? Mick Jagger would say, "satisfaction". What is your motivation for getting medals? Also, I recognize that medals are important, but do not want them to have an overriding influence - that's my argument. It isn't comparable to CLs, since, yes, the diminishing returns make it much easier to gain ground on an experienced player, while medals require specific events and placement to be earned. You cannot even the playing field - ever, unless they retire or die. This logic applies partially to equipment because of celestial transforms, but there will still be a time where those will balance out.

      As Sun Tzu once said, "Victory is knowing when to fight and when to not fight". Unless you're referencing a warrior monk, I believe my parable wins. For now let's say that "the half-eaten steak still sees the bill come due".

      Comment


      • RAFERS102
        RAFERS102 commented
        Editing a comment
        To put the leveling to 70 in perspective, I can do it in sub 10 minutes in AnB. However that doesn't not give me an advantage what so ever. Even with that quick time to lv70, I can not compete for a top 25 position on the Leaderboards. Now this is even with a 15k gem spend as well. The two things I lack are the skills to do so and the correct device to do so. This might change now that havoc / demo doesn't require the enormous FPS that Stalker does.

      #9
      Wispy (Rob Spooner) made a series of videos outlining the difference between having and not having medals. Having medals helps at the beginning leveling to 70 but after that the gap closes and isn't much at all.

      Comment


      #10
      A lot of the frustration from new players is that they are constantly being told on discord and here, that if they do this and that strategy that they will easily get into the top 100 etc. What they actually find is that it isn't that easy. After all, only 100 players out of several thousand can get those spots. Not everyone can or will get there, no matter what skills or devices they have.

      Comment


      • RAFERS102
        RAFERS102 commented
        Editing a comment
        They will with time, however if a new player expects to be in the top 100 on their first 3 AnB's , then they have dilutions of grandeur. Just the same as anyone that want the No.1 spot, if you want that, expect years of effort or the people that have put the years in to retire.

      • davidz
        davidz commented
        Editing a comment
        Ranking is meaningless without medals. The goal is to get medals, so it doesn’t make sense to have no medal.

      #11
      Originally posted by gravano View Post
      Ozymandias ...speaking anecdotally, I have always found that I increase my current TL in regular mode after getting medals. Perhaps it's medals with the added XP & celestials, or it could be a placebo effect. As for you vs. Nhat, I don't know your medal stats - how substantial a difference are we talking? How much time does it take for you to reach level 70 vs. him?
      This time, accept the medals but keep your gear set, CLs, and enchantments exactly the same as your baseline build. I think that you will find that the "effect" of the medal you add will be quite negligible.

      Not sure what your point is about "how substantial a difference" there is between my Warrior with medals and Nhat's Warrior without medals. Are you changing your argument? If you hypothesis is correct, then having any medals at all would give me an advantage, and I have many. Are you now suggesting that having some "substantial" number of medals is necessary to gain an advantage, then how many medals are necessary to reach the "substantial" threshold?

      I accept that having medals will give a player a bit of an edge in leveling up a hero in an ANB, all other things being equal. However, all things are rarely equal, that "edge" is easily negated by other leveling up strategies that do not depend on medals, even a lucky craft or gear drop can make more of a difference. Your original point was that medals make it impossible for your to reach #1 on the leaderboard because other players have more medals than you (i.e., medals make a significant difference in end of event performance), but your argument seems to be shifting to "well, medals do give an edge in the push to level 70." Certainly we can agree that having a slightly faster leveling up time has no meaningful effect on where a player ends up at the end of the event. As my wise friend Tin Man often says, there are lots of ways to increase your level up time that actually end up hurting your long term success in the event because they burn up resources that would be better spent later in the event.

      Good luck collecting your data. I will collect data on my end as well, so we can compare notes. We should stipulate that we need to test the hypothesis at a high level trial and that the only change to the hero is the addition of the medal or medals from the Gold ANB event. That way, we can be sure that any effect in the data comes from the medal(s) and not from additional CLs or changes in gear. I will most likely run my tests around TL130 where I already have some baseline data. I am keeping my new ANB character, so I can also run a similar test at a low level trial with lower level gear as well, where any medal effect is more likely to be measurable.

      May the force be with you.
      Last edited by Ozymandius; 09-30-2021, 12:12 PM.

      Comment


        #12
        I'm someone who's played the game on and off for years. I only recently started participating in ANBs, and in the span of a few short months, I went from not ranking at all to regularly reaching the top 250 to top 100 depending on the amount of time and effort that real life allows me to put into the game.

        I'm not too anti-medal because I'm not really that skilled and play on an inferior device, so I'll take all the help I can get. Will I reach the top of the leaderboard? Probably not (although I did in the Arena, so at least I was number 1 at something if only for a little while). Am I having fun? Most definitely! Plus, I meet cool new friends all the time.

        But if it reaches the point where I get too frustrated with a system that most likely won't substantially change in the direction I'd like it to, I'll probably just quit and find a new game or hobby.

        Comment


        • Grand_Wazoo
          Grand_Wazoo commented
          Editing a comment
          Amen to this.

        #13
        Originally posted by gravano View Post
        Our only hope for displacing them is that they quit playing or die.
        Lol
        DUCI HEXA YIWA 0721

        Comment


        • Kristoff
          Kristoff commented
          Editing a comment
          Actually, since processor power supposedly has such a big impact on damage dealt, couldn't you theoretically run the game off a bunch of CPUs that are linked together like a server farm to give you a lot of extra punch?

        • Stusmith50
          Stusmith50 commented
          Editing a comment
          Top end monitor and an average PC is the optimal build for Eternium.

        #14
        As a noob to this game,i must say i also initially felt that medals were unfair

        Thanks to readings this thread,i realize that i was probably misguided in my initial thinking and that medals probably dont have as much an impact on my game as other parts which i can improve

        Comment


          #15
          FYI
          Medals have been awarded....
          Last edited by Grand_Wazoo; 10-01-2021, 11:48 AM.

          Comment


          • Kristoff
            Kristoff commented
            Editing a comment
            Wow, that was quick...
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