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50% resale value of items inhibiting experimentation?

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  • 50% resale value of items inhibiting experimentation?

    I am of the opinion that the 50% resale value on items stops players from experimenting with builds as much as they would otherwise, especially regarding the more expensive items.

    I know there are several ways to earn money in game (i.e. by not spending real life money), some of which are finite (the practice levels), others which could potentially earn you infinite amounts depending on how long you keep playing (arena, ranked and unranked games) - but this means the game is forcing players to 'grind' - in some games this is for experience to level up, here it involves repeatedly playing to earn gold.

    Ideally, I would think you want people playing because they want to play rather than for another motive, such as earning gold or experience, because then the game gets repetitive. This is especially true in the ladder, since you end up facing the same bots over and over again. Furthermore, if you are doing this to get money to try out a new build, you are playing with an item set you are looking to switch out or tweak.

    Possible ways to remedy this:

    1) make all items free, part of an armoury that all players, new and old have full access to - if the aim is to test your skill against your opponents through your use of tokens and items, what advantage is there to the items costing money?

    2) all items cost the same amount, and are balanced - a relatively cheap amount like 3000-5000 gold, without the clear hierarchy that currently exists for some items being better than others. There are a whole lot of items which players will never use because they are clearly worse than other items, and seem to only be in the game for players who are starting out and don't have much gold. NB I am not saying that all more expensive items are better than cheaper ones.

    3) 100% resale value - even if you end up saving up a whole lot of money to buy one of the more expensive items, you know you can sell it for as much as you bought it, so you would be much more likely to try it out. This should increase experimentation with different item combinations for those players who don't have the time or inclination to grind for gold.


    I'm sure there are other possible solutions, but these are the ones that come to mind. If the developers want to have a gold sink, it would be better if this could be something which doesn't affect game mechanics, perhaps something aesthetic.

  • #2
    I have a better idea. Let's go back to 25% resale value

    Why? Players don't know how to use their own builds
    Why? They don't "grind" enough (don't gain experience)
    Why? Too high resale value. Doesn't give them enough time to learn or think about their last failure

    With 100% resale value or free items there's no point to create a build on your own. Why waste time. Just play and steal what you see. That's what you want?


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    • #3
      That would be fine, if the developers want to lose their base of casual players, who don't have time to spend hours and hours grinding and earning gold to buy items for a build which 'might' work, and if it doesn't work out as they thought (because you don't want them 'copying' builds others have designed that are effective), then they lose half their gold selling the gear to be able to buy other stuff.

      Also, it costs less money if you read about a build, and only buy those items. It costs much more money to try out different combinations to create your own unique build (most of which won't work or will need tweaking). So the 50% resale value, and high costs of some items, hinders that much more than players who just want to buy a single combination of items they have read about on the forums or have seen a bot using.
      Last edited by Raukodur; 03-25-2018, 10:18 PM.

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      • #4
        There's an easy fix. Do some theorycrafting instead of wasting your time on this ^

        Every 2nd player in ranked games was using Daddadook's cheap berserker build after he posted it in forum. I'm talking about 3000+ rating players, so called "top players". My problem is that most of them had no idea how to play. They made rookie mistakes. Players like that are not suppose to reach high rating/rank. There's absolutely no joy in beating them

        This is what will happen with any of your ideas. It ruins the game for good players and helps only those who otherwise don't have what it takes. Not talking about time

        Making a build is a skill. Players who are good at it deserve to have an advantage. That being said, increasing rewards of daily quests to 1000 gold (average, Nivenfaal's idea) could improve things for casual players

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Patarei View Post
          I'm talking about 3000+ rating players, so called "top players". My problem is that most of them had no idea how to play. They made rookie mistakes. Players like that are not suppose to reach high rating/rank. There's absolutely no joy in beating them
          That is an issue with how the ladder works, and the number of bots on it. The solution to that is not to limit gold to try and force players to play for hours to earn enough to try different items, which they will be hesitant to do knowing if the build they want to try doesn't work, they only get 50% of their money back. Otherwise casual players will not bother with the game, and as far as I can tell, that is a major problem this game has at the moment.

          Your issue with people using an established build that is known to be successful is a symptom of this. If items were free you would see a lot of people experimenting a lot more with different builds.

          But in the end, if the main part of the game is a ladder with a ranking system, and a percentage win/lose, and on the ladder you play certain bots over and over again, then casual players will always choose a build that allows them to progress rather than lose repeatedly (even though you are right, in that learning to play their tokens better would probably allow them to win). But without being able to attract and keep more players playing the game, there can't be a player only ladder, or one where you only play bots infrequently when human players aren't around.

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          • #6

            [INDENT]
            Every 2nd player in ranked games was using Daddadook's cheap berserker build after he posted it in forum. I'm talking about 3000+ rating players, so called "top players". My problem is that most of them had no idea how to play. They made rookie mistakes. Players like that are not suppose to reach high rating/rank. There's absolutely no joy in beating them

            Yeah, sorry. I kinda wish I'd never published that; I'm so sick of playing against it.

            On topic though, . .I like the reduced selling price .
            When I try something which doesn't work I'm more determined to keep working on it and fix the problems rather than scrap it. Also, I keep the items and am more likely to experiment with them later. My new assassin is a perfect example of this ... It started out as a 2hw witch experiment and is now a fast hitting nightmare beating all the 3100 bots easily almost every time.

            I don't think id have made it if I could have just dumped the items at full value.

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            • #7
              Player can always choose
              1) Spend 5 minutes doing math
              2) "Play for hours to earn enough to try different items"
              I know you think that all players will pick option 2, but it's not true. I've met few who were able to determine the META without playing more than some practice matches

              MY ISSUE with people using the established builds is that they don't understand how or why those builds work. Monkey see, monkey do. They will never bring anything new to the table. If gold is limited there's at least a slight chance they are forced to think before acting (read: copying) and I won't see them in ranked games. I call it a win

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Daddadook View Post
                Yeah, sorry. I kinda wish I'd never published that; I'm so sick of playing against it.
                You probably suffer the most. So I'm not mad ​​​​​​​

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Patarei View Post
                  MY ISSUE with people using the established builds is that they don't understand how or why those builds work. Monkey see, monkey do. They will never bring anything new to the table. If gold is limited there's at least a slight chance they are forced to think before acting (read: copying) and I won't see them in ranked games. I call it a win
                  But you both have just said you are seeing so many players having copied the berserker build up in the 3000+ ranks. So what does that tell you?

                  That the way the system is at the moment encourages players to copy established builds, and not to experiment.

                  You can't use your own examples, when both of you are hardcore players, I am talking about casual players who don't have the time or inclination to spend hours and hours playing to get gold to try out a new build. They won't do that, what they will do is see a good build on the forums or on a bot, and copy that.

                  And also, if you want people to really experiment, it is in trying to find some unique, obscure combo, that they think may work well, or be fun to play. That often requires more than just doing the math in your head, you want to actually get the items to try out. Knowing you will only get half the value back if you end up selling the items because the build did not work as well as you expected, is inhibiting to this process.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Raukodur View Post
                    But you both have just said you are seeing so many players having copied the berserker build up in the 3000+ ranks. So what does that tell you?
                    That tells me that everything is fine. They have wasted their funds and can't copy my builds

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                    • #11
                      I wonder if any of the mods care to weigh in, and tell us their thoughts?

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                      • #12
                        I have had no involvement with the design of IronBound, so I can speak only to generalities.

                        First, keep in mind that it was 25%, but many people complained, so the developers changed it to 50%. Since then, just one person has complained. I say that in jest, but we did go from a lot of vocal discontent to practically none on the issue. Take a CCG like, well, any of them that have some sort of crafting-dusting mechanic. You don't get as much out of them as you put in. It's a standard part of game economies for a few reasons. I'm not a game economist and can only speak to what little I do know. But players need to make decisions and there must be a progression. If you sold back at 100%, players will reach a point when progress is lost. Just take the most expensive kit and that's now your stopping point for people. If, say, 60k gold gets me any kit I want, then the only hindrance is that amount x the number of classes currently available. Someone who has the patience can just sell between classes, re-kit, play, re-sell, etc. At that point, a sense of progress is lost, the idea of building a collection of inventory is lost, and the importance of decision making is lost.

                        The vast percentage of players of any game like this do not spend real money. They instead invest time. What they expect for that time is a reasonable rate of progression that lets them stay competitive if they play enough. Here that means earning enough gold to acquire desired items. As in any game like this, some items are more valuable than others. If this were a loot box model, you'd have a harder time getting Mirror of Ra than you would Tribal Might. In IronBound's case, all items are accessible to everyone, but at differentiated costs. Again, progress, collection, decision-making.

                        For the small percentage of people who do spend real money, there has to be a sense of value. The booster is a really good deal in my opinion, and I bought it on my "real" account because it was the obvious way to increase my earnings without going bonkers on 10k gold packages. But putting resale value at 100%, I would argue, drives down the sense of value to someone interested in spending money. It's not that developers want to incentivize the same spender to buy over and over and over--those people are actually quite rare. But why spend at all if you can get to some critical amount, say that 60k gold above, and be done? The gold booster is a value because it does pay over time and always will.

                        Conversely, a spender could arrive, drop $60, and then have "all the game." Is that fair to the free players who put in hours of game play to acquire their 60k gold?

                        Basically, throttles are important. Not having them can bust a game's economy and run it to ruin, literally. Games have gone under for decisions like that. Think about energy-based systems. Energy limits play, but if you remove it, what happens? People start farming in overdrive, and in a month's time, nobody needs to buy anything because they've farmed all the resources they need. Here that throttle is almost entirely in the item costs, and removing it would harm the game as I see it.

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                        • #13
                          Many thanks for your thoughts David.

                          If I understand you correctly, what you are saying is that money you earn by playing is used as an incentive, to reward players who play more. And by having this, it also allows/encourages those players who wish to spend real life money to purchase one of the available packages.

                          While making all items free would change this system, I don't believe having a 100% resale value would. You are still only spending the money you have earned by playing.

                          As I've tried to explain in my posts, by being able to get back the full amount you have spent, players will be more likely to try out different items, knowing if the combinations they try don't work, they can sell the items to buy other stuff. Otherwise you are in effect punishing players for trying out an item combo, especially if they don't know in advance how effective it is going to be. This stifles experimentation for casual players who can't spend as much time playing the game to earn lots of gold.

                          In effect this is already recognised to be an issue by both the developers and the players, e.g. 100% resale value for items under 1000 gold, the change in resale value from 25% to 50%, other threads regarding ways to sample items for free to prevent 'frustration' when the hours spent 'farming gold' are wasted when a 'test-run' is unsuccessful or you want to 'move-on'.

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                          • #14
                            Game designers will tell you that games must let players make choices, including bad ones. The experimentation threshold that the developers decided on is 1000g. Past that, players make their choices, including bad ones. But really, I can't comment in any detail as my only role with IB is to support players, and I just don't have the answers.

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                            • #15
                              How about a "sandbox" mode where you gain nothing from your victories (so no gold or rank gained) but can select any equipment to use for free in the sandbox. It would allow you to try before you buy but still require you to earn the gold to buy equipment if you want to use it to earn rank etc.

                              Also, I play on a phone with a very small screen and managed to accidentally buy a sword I didn't want the other day. How about allowing resale at full price for, say, 1 hour after purchase to avoid penalising people for accidentally pressing the "buy" button when they did not mean to do so!

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