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Corrupt? Too broken to preserve?

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  • Corrupt? Too broken to preserve?

    As many of you know, Josh is working on a redesign of the collection. No mechanic inspires more angst or grinding of teeth than corrupt.

    I'm starting this thread to put opinions in one place that he can come and read.

    Feel free to sound off on everyone's favorite mechanic. Would you nerf it slightly (like make it one turn only), abolish it, rethink it entirely?

    The goal in the redesign is depth of play with a simplicity of design. So is there an elegant solution to corrupt?

  • #2
    As I stated in the other thread, losing corrupt is a sacrifice id be willing to make on account of how every high-level deck needs to incorporate a counter to it combined with how buggy it is.

    although, typing this up, I did have a thought. Could the corrupted minion be moved to the other champ's board? I'm sure it's not easy to implement, but at first glance, it feels more elegent.

    Comment


    • #3
      There are several ways I can think of corruption as a mechanic, both thematically and within the meta. I've tried to come up with a mechanic that works in both. So think about what a corrupted minion would do but also recognize that the universe of the battle field already has some limitations / expectations / rules that this needs to fit into. So also think about how the game and a battle is structured.

      Some of the broken aspects of corruption currently are that (1) a corrupted minion attacks his own champ directly without being blocked by the opponent's minions, (2) if your minion is corrupted you cannot target them as an enemy so your only options are ally-targeted spells or abilities that might cancel corrupt or sacrifice the minion, (3) inconsistency in which effects "switch sides", (4) you can now control more than five minions, and (5) the opponent loses the number of minions that can control. Since the corrupted minion is now attacking their owner on the original opponent's behalf, the original owner should now be considered the opponent and the original opponent should be considered the new owner with respect to everything the minion does (attack, ally benefits, enemy effects, etc).

      The way a battle currently works is you have your hero and their abilities, a hand of up to five spells, and a board of up to five minion slots. It doesn't matter how large or small those minions or spells are, you're not arranging your minions in a 3D space (no getting more minions by stack a flying minion on top of a grounded minion), your minions aren't moving past or around the enemy to position themselves for attacks. The only positioning is which of the five board slots they occupy. So all of that context should frame how the corrupted minion works.

      My thought is that when a minion is corrupted, they should literally switch sides. As soon as you cast corrupt, that minion moves from your opponent's board to your board. From then on (until corrupt is done), it acts as if you played their spell. You are the owner and your opponent is the minion's opponent. Your opponent can target the minion as an enemy and you can target him as an ally. Your opponent can place a blocking minion in front of them. If you do not have an open space on your board then you cannot cast corrupt. When the corruption ends (spell expires, minion dies, some other effect ends corruption) the minion returns to your opponent's board or hand depending on what canceled the corruption (if board is full, returns to their hand, if hand is full returns to top of deck). Which position is favored (try to stay in the same left-right position, move to rightmost or leftmost, random, etc) would need to be decided. This addresses several issues:
      • The minion's effects will all act consistently against allies/enemies
      • Your abilities/spells and your opponent's abilities/spells can target the minion appropriately based on their new allegiance
      • You maintain your limitation of only controlling five minions at a time
      • Your opponent can still control up to five minions on their own board
      • Visually everyone is in the "right" place
      • The corrupted minion does not have unfettered access to attack the opposing champ
      • Because the minion is now in your stable, it should make the ability interactions (and the code behind them) more consistent and portable

      A few other ideas, just as alternative options (multiple options could be done where not mutually exclusive):
      • Reduce Darlok's corruption to a fixed time (3 rounds is probably reasonable)
      • Make Corruption's duration based on minion rarity (Legendary = 1 turn, Epic = 2 turns, etc)
      • Make Corruption attack adjacent enemy minions before they can target the enemy champ
      • Adjacent minions attack Corrupted minion instead of the minion across the board from them
      • Allow a Corrupted minion to be targeted based on his allegiance by abilities/spells
      • Make all abilities (attack, on-attack, on-defend, start/end-of-turn) work appropriately to the minion's new allegiance
      Last edited by adjacentengels; 06-08-2018, 03:04 PM.

      Comment


      • #4
        This is what we are hoping to do... needs to be looked into.

        Originally posted by adjacentengels View Post

        My thought is that when a minion is corrupted, they should literally switch sides. As soon as you cast corrupt, that minion moves from your opponent's board to your board. From then on (until corrupt is done), it acts as if you played their spell. You are the owner and your opponent is the minion's opponent. Your opponent can target the minion as an enemy and you can target him as an ally. Your opponent can place a blocking minion in front of them. If you do not have an open space on your board then you cannot cast corrupt. When the corruption ends (spell expires, minion dies, some other effect ends corruption) the minion returns to your opponent's board or hand depending on what canceled the corruption (if board is full, returns to their hand, if hand is full returns to top of deck). Which position is favored (try to stay in the same left-right position, move to rightmost or leftmost, random, etc) would need to be decided. This addresses several issues:
        • The minion's effects will all act consistently against allies/enemies
        • Your abilities/spells and your opponent's abilities/spells can target the minion appropriately based on their new allegiance
        • You maintain your limitation of only controlling five minions at a time
        • Your opponent can still control up to five minions on their own board
        • Visually everyone is in the "right" place
        • The corrupted minion does not have unfettered access to attack the opposing champ
        • Because the minion is now in your stable, it should make the ability interactions (and the code behind them) more consistent and portable

        Comment


        • #5
          I personally feel that changing the duration to 3 rounds & following BAgate's suggestion to let them be target by you enemy attack spells (or even implementing that in general) are the best ways to fix this. I also want to note that every realm should have a way to counter this & so far not all do.

          Having the card switch sides would be OK, though I suspect it might be a pain to implement. Also Nemain would have to be changes so whe still works. Or you could make a special corrupted slot so the ability always has a place to put the card.

          Comment


          • #6
            My opinion is that corrupt is perfectly fine as a mechanic, the issue is with other things. Corrupting a minion should work differently than casting a minion of your own, so just having it switch sides is not ideal (although I could live with it). And making it work like it belonged to you while it is still your opponents wold be too powerful. So I think that the current set up, where it attacks your opponent but its abilities still work FOR your opponent and not against him, is great, and fits thematically.

            The problem with it is that there are so few ways to deal with a corrupted minion, as opposed to an opponent's minion. So my suggestion is to increase the number of ways to deal with a corrupted minion. Specifically, 1) remove the limitation that spells/abilities target only enemy minions. If Crow can snipe his own corrupted minion, if direct damage can target corrupted minions, if in short, any method you have of dealing with opposing minions also applies to corrupted minions then there is no more problem. This would also increase strategic possibilities for the rest of the game. Think of destroying one of your minions that has been stunned or nightmared. Or killing a weak minion to make room for a stronger one. 2) Make corrupted minions count as both enemy and allied minions for mass effect spells. This would be consistent thematically and would, again, let spells/abilities you have that deal with opponent minions deal with corrupted minions.

            Things to consider for this thread.

            1) Nemain - if corrupt is significantly nerfed, you are ruining a 6 star.

            2) Zeacon's Betrayal - there already is a mechanic that essentially just damages opponent for 1 turn.

            3) Comparison - remember to compare corrupt to some other 3rd level blood abilities, such as Faith's protect all, Vangelis rebirth all, Ramses/Dawn/Sakara mass damage, etc.

            4) Cost - I believe it is the most expensive blood ability, so it should be damn powerful.

            Comment


            • #7
              Thematically it does not make sense to leave abilities working FOR your opponent in all (or most) cases. Thank about blast damage. A mage normally sends a fireball into the enemies camp and blasts the entire opponent's field with damage. But when they're corrupted they blast their original owner with the fireball but the splash damage still blasts the opposite side of the field.

              Comment


              • #8
                Other than blast, I can't think of another ability it wouldn't work for, and even blast isn't really wrong. When you are corrupted you turn on your master, but you still view other minions as either friends or foes by the same criteria. So if I Corrupt you Blast Mage he now views you as his enemy but still views your minions as his friends and mine as his enemies.

                But the bigger issue for blast is simply the programming complication. If you just switch sides the blast would catch the creature originating it. To exempt itself would require another level of complexity.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by BAgate View Post
                  Other than blast, I can't think of another ability it wouldn't work for, and even blast isn't really wrong. When you are corrupted you turn on your master, but you still view other minions as either friends or foes by the same criteria. So if I Corrupt you Blast Mage he now views you as his enemy but still views your minions as his friends and mine as his enemies.

                  But the bigger issue for blast is simply the programming complication. If you just switch sides the blast would catch the creature originating it. To exempt itself would require another level of complexity.
                  I've been suggesting that a corrupted blast hit it's own side for quite some time, and with the reactions the suggestion gets, I think people aren't considering that the blast SHOULD hit the corrupted minion, thus making the whole thing a self-solving problem.

                  I'm still voting for a corrupted minion to switch sides, though. I know the devs are probably cringing at how to implement it, but once it's in place, I think it will be good balance of power and theme.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by BAgate View Post
                    Other than blast, I can't think of another ability it wouldn't work for, and even blast isn't really wrong.
                    Any ability that the minion does by choice should target based on their allegiance. Anything that the minion would be directing by their intention should help the people they now consider their friends and hurt those they now consider their enemies. The only things that wouldn't work would be things inherently location-based. For example, if you consider Great Elk's healing to be an aura that heals everyone near them whether the Elk likes them or not, then if the Elk doesn't physically change locations on the board then it makes sense that their former allies would still get the benefit. "Damn you, you people I don't like, get out of my healing aura!" But if the healing is more an energy that the Elk consciously sends to their allies then the Elk would want to help those whom it considers its friends.

                    Originally posted by BAgate View Post
                    So if I Corrupt you Blast Mage he now views you as his enemy but still views your minions as his friends and mine as his enemies.
                    I do not agree with this. If a minion is corrupted their view of everyone changes. Player Blue casts a minion. Player Red corrupts them. Why would the minion's thoughts be "Wow, Blue Leader is so awesome now but all Blue team members are the worst and I should kill them. And Red Leader is the absolute worst, I should totally kill him but everyone on team Red is totally my friend." "Red five standing by." Their mind gets corrupted so that everyone they supported they are now against and vice versa.

                    Originally posted by BAgate View Post
                    If you just switch sides the blast would catch the creature originating it. To exempt itself would require another level of complexity.
                    No, because they would move from Player A's side to Player B's side and then attack Player B's side and minions. Alternately, if the minion doesn't physically switch sides then they should get hit by their own blast, sacrificing themselves if necessary to kill their enemy (which at that point would be everyone around them).

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I was trying to justify the current functionality which is a decent compromise (having the blast hit his own side could be considered overpowered). But, frankly, arguing about thematics is kind of pointless.

                      If you think he should die in his own blast, how does that fit thematically? He suddenly hates himself and decides to commit suicide? Inferno Dragon breathes on himself? Doesn't make much sense. So if you implement switching the direction of blast it should exempt the origin, which would make for complicated coding. And if, for balance reasons, you think that it should hit itself, then why are you arguing that the blast not switching sides isn't thematically correct when you don't care about how the mechanics are thematically?

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by BAgate View Post
                        I was trying to justify the current functionality which is a decent compromise (having the blast hit his own side could be considered overpowered). But, frankly, arguing about thematics is kind of pointless.
                        The current functionality is not a decent compromise, it is a mess of inconsistency. And arguing thematics is only pointless if you don't care about the game's mechanics being thematically consistent (which I do).

                        Originally posted by BAgate View Post
                        If you think he should die in his own blast, how does that fit thematically? He suddenly hates himself and decides to commit suicide? Inferno Dragon breathes on himself? Doesn't make much sense
                        Your examples are not an accurate representation of what I've suggested so you not making sense doesn't really apply to the arguments I've made. I did say they might sacrifice themselves, but that is (1) perfectly within the current game thematic and (2) was only if my preferred proposal of switching game sides is not used. Currently a minion can be placed in a position in which they are guaranteed to die (for example blocking a bigger minion that will kill them). They do it. Thematically this is because they recognize the fight as a greater goal than their own survival so they are willing to join the fight in a way that sacrifices themselves in order to win the greater battle. So getting caught in their own blast in pursuit of the greater battle fits in exactly with how they would behave uncorrupted. Even Inferno Dragon is fine; under normal circumstances all enemies are in front of it, so it breathes in a V in front of itself and only damages minions on the other side of the board. When surrounded by enemies, it breathes all around itself, engulfing itself in its own flames, again, willing to sacrifice itself for the greater battle. And while some mythologies state that dragons are immune or resistant to their own damage type, this game does not specify that the Inferno Dragon has any damage resistance or immunity so there is nothing in this game's lore that states the dragon can't hurt itself.

                        Originally posted by BAgate View Post
                        So if you implement switching the direction of blast it should exempt the origin, which would make for complicated coding.
                        I disagree, it should not exempt the origin unless the origin minion has some stated defense/immunity/resistance.

                        Originally posted by BAgate View Post
                        And if, for balance reasons, you think that it should hit itself, then why are you arguing that the blast not switching sides isn't thematically correct when you don't care about how the mechanics are thematically?
                        I do care about the mechanics being thematic, I just don't agree with what you consider thematic.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          If a minion blasts everyone in font of him, but if he is corrupted he blasts everyone besides himself including himself then that is not consistent. To be mechanically consistent he should blast an entire side, which he is on. To be thematically consistent he should blast everyone on his side but himself. You can't be consistent in both ways (unless you have the minion change sides, which has its own problems in a game with limited slots). Turning suicidal when you don't have to doesn't make sense (Mage turns around and blasts everyone around him but himself or drops a fireball at his feet, Dragon turns a circle and breaths on his former allies or breaths at his feet, which makes more sense?).

                          As to the current mechanics, why is it not a decent compromise? Mechanically it means the minion attacks his owner but the owner still gets the benefits of his abilities. I'd say that keeps corrupt from being to powerful. Thematically, as I said, he just changes his view of his boss, not his coworkers. Not the most elegant solution, but I think it works. However, if you wanted to turn powers such as blast around, while I think it would be a problem thematically, I wouldn't object from a mechanical perspective.

                          So we will just have to agree to disagree.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            The problem with trying to make corrupt work thematically, is that it depends entirely on how exactly it works story wise to determine how it should effect things. The game never says if the person's morals are corrupted, if they think friends are foes in disguise, if they hate their old leader or if they now thing the other leader is the best person they have ever seen. Each of those would have corrupt work in different ways to fit it's theme. Don't say it's obviously x, y or z unless you are a developer because the game only gives us a single clue. The word corrupt, which is open to interpretation. So arguing over what it should mean is kind of pointless.

                            Right now the best thing we can do is make sure the ability works mechanically consistently. (Also letting you target them just like they were enemy cards so it's easier to counter.) Moving them to the other side of the board is one way to do that. While I am not opposed to it being done that way I am not a fan of that either. You can also decide to avoid headaches by saying only damage is done & all other special effects of the cards are temporarily nullified. The last of the major options would be to give a clear definition of which abilities effect who. For example special abilities done directly the strike are applied to the champion stuck, but all other effects go off as normal. This is the most complex of the 3 I would say (not counting programing difficulties for having cards show up on the other side).

                            Much as I like a good story in the game, it is more important for a game to have mechanics that work consistently or where the exceptions are easy to grok. Right now for all it's problems it's easy to tell what a corrupted minion will do even if you thing some of the abilities should be reversed.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              With the current implementation of corruption, either all the abilities of a minion need to be usurped or none of them. Cherry picking certain abilities to work against your champ while other still work for you makes things needlessly complicated and inconsistent. I would dump this mechanic from the game but if it were to remain it should be in the minion-swaps-sides form so that the behavior of the corrupted minion is obvious. I would place limits on the corruption ability such as:
                              - must have an open slot to transfer the minion
                              - can only corrupt minions in the realms of influence of your champ
                              - corrupted minion is inert in the turn in which it corrupted (does not attack or apply abilities)

                              I think Darlok's Dominate ability should be switched to a power climb mechanic, maybe similar to Hyperia's second ability except that it draws the power from opposing minions. That would synergize much better with his rarely used first ability. It would be a lot more fun to play than the current dominate-and-win-because-AI-can't-counter strategy.

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