Lily question

[Naktl]

I have been experimenting with different BH Lily builds. Normally it seems most BH builds include Rapid Fire for the buff, but part of that buff is to Crit Dmg. Of course that doesn’t matter on a Lily build, so what Ability do you think you would substitute?

I am currently messing about with 2xHavoc, 2xDemo, 2xAssualt. Scatter and Explosive. Last version was both Magnetic and Frozen Traps with buffs for them from bracer, sometimes belt, etc. Just for xp/xg. Pretty fun on pulls, but sucks for bosses.

[100licad]

Problem is that there are not many offensive abilities to choose from, heatseakers, RF, multishot and snipe (this one is great for crit builds, not really for lilly), so you are down to heatseakers, RF and multishot... with at least two pieces of assault you want scatter shot and RF, but this means less ES putting havoc and demo in question. I would focus on one attack, either scatter or ES and build around that, so either 4 demo / 2 havoc with ES or 6 assault with scatter. Also if you use scatter you want teslas, if using ES you want igniters. Seems it’s very hard to combine these sets...

[Naktl]

Thanks. Useful. I like the Demo 6pc, which means Lethal and Explosive. Currently I am messing about with an entirely useless 2xHavoc/2xDemo/2xAssault with Explosive and Scatter. Never be competitive, but pretty fun for xp/xg.

[Ozymandius]

Naktl Part of the Rapid Fire damage bonus is to Critical Damage, but there is also an overall damage boost. I ran a quick test on the Training Grounds with a Fire Lily BH comparing the damage per cast from regular Explosive Shot without Rapid Fire bonus to Explosive Shot with Rapid Fire bonus:

	without RF	with RF
Explosive Shot AOE	4.75	7.67
Explosive Shot	11.62	20.21

As you can see, the regular damage boost from Rapid Fire still applies even though you do not get the extra Critical Damage boost. For my Demo BH, the RF boost almost doubles the damage over just using Explosive Shot without the RF boost. Given that, I don't really see being able to compete without the RF boost, even when using a Fire Lily configuration.

I agree with 100licad that it is very hard to combine the different sets using a 2:2:2 build because each pistol set is maximized to a limited gear set (e.g., Assault & Tesla). You do much better with a 4:2 build which gives you one 4 pc set bonus multiplier. Most people seem to lean toward combining Havoc and Demo since they both are tuned to work with the Igniters pistol set, but there are some players who use the 6pc Assault build for XP or gold farming. The Tesla pistols with Scatter Shot are fun to use, and the Assault BH set gives the most move speed so you can speed through maps.

[Argon]

Did you unequip your molten belt for that test? I'm a bit confused because i thaught with lily equipped there is no bonus to ES from RF. But RF adds alacrity procs, tracer ammo and sticky bomb (edit: and molten belt) stacks

[Ozymandius]

Argon No, I did not think to do that. I will rerun my tests without the Molten Belt and make a follow-up post. Thanks for the tip.

[Naktl]

I am using Tesla’s on my 2/2/2 abomination BH. I think I might use the Axes on my 2/2/2 warrior build. I have not seen anything that would make an amusing 2/2/2 Mage build yet.

[Ozymandius]

I reran the same test without Molten Belt. This is for a 6 piece Demo BH using Fire Lily and compares the damage from Explosive Shot without the RF boost versus with the RF boost.

	without RF	with RF
Explosive Shot AOE	4.68	6.06
Explosive Shot	11.32	14.8

So the Molten Belt inflated the values in the previous analysis. Still getting a bonus from Rapid Fire, but not nearly as impressive as the boost that I saw while using Molten Belt.

Then I changed over to a 6 piece Havoc set to get rid of Sticky Bombs (still using the Fire Lily as the only unique trinket):

	without RF	with RF
Explosive Shot AOE	7.39	10.06
Explosive Shot	10.81	16.50

Finally, I replaced Tracer Ammo with Endurance to get Tracer Ammo stack off the build for one last test:

	without RF	with RF
Explosive Shot AOE	3.49	3.52
Explosive Shot	5.61	5.70

So, as Argon suggested, the damage bonus from Rapid Fire on a Fire Lily build comes from increases in stacks of Tracer Ammo, Sticky Bombs, and Molten Belt. If a hero does not have any of these three attacks, then the RF would not add any damage boost. Since Explosive Shot is my primary attack for a Demo or Havoc BH, I always equip Tracer Ammo. I also use Igniters Pistols as well as Molten Belt to help with boss fights, so I never really noticed any drop off from using Rapid Fire with a Fire Lily.

[LodWig]

I do not understand at all how you got these numbers. Could you explain further the experiments you did? Rapid Fire alone gives a huge boost to the attack it triggers. I will elaborate when time permits.

[Ozymandius]

LodWig The OP question was about whether Rapid Fire has any effect when using Fire Lily. I was running a BH in Training Grounds because I felt like I was still seeing a boost from RF and I wanted to see if the effect was still there. Based on Argon comment, I kept taking away different attacks or gear that might be affected by RF (Molten Belt, Sticky Bombs, and finally Tracer Ammo). It wasn't until I had removed all of these options that the RF boost finally disappeared. Basically, I ran TG using only standard attack (Explosive Shot), collected the data on Damage per Cast, then reset the simulation and ran it again for a similar time while keeping RF effect active to be able to compare the Damage per Cast with RF active versus the same hero attacking without RF active.

[LodWig]

OK I get it now. You are not trying to assess the damage of Rapid Fire, but how it enhance the basic attacks after it has been used.But apart from the damage boost which affects only the primary shots made by RF (8 shots for RF level 10), the only direct damage enhancement (CD% increase for 3s) is nullified by the Lily, and you are left with the faster stacking of some buffs. Your last table is no surprise then.

[Argon]

@Ozimandius Ever since they introduced the new sets I ran into training grounds with osmosis on heads. I forgot to exchange head pieces for my warrior first, forgot the same with mage and the last test with BH I had osmosis AND molten armor buffs running at the same time

[Ozymandius]

I did not think about removing Osmosis, but it does not seem to be affected by RF, since I used the same helmet in all of the Havoc gear trials.

[Argon]

It has the same effect as molten armor, gradually increases the damage of all attacks. The longer it is used (on the same foe) the bigger the effect. RF has less or no effect on osmosis because osmosis is limited to 30 procs per min and that cadence is mostly reached with regular attacks, so RF doesn't add stacks signidicantly. It's damage buff has iritated me many times in TG because it affects all damage done including RF and ES.
RF with lily only boosts the primary attack used, but not as the description says BY 350%, but TO 350%. As in the damage of the primary used is multipied with 3.5. And this buff only applies to the RF damage which is displayed separately as RF damage whereas the regular primary attack damage isn't affected

[LodWig]

Excellent description. Just a precision, the 350% from Rapid Fire level 10 is as you say really a +250%, but this is accumulated with other active source of damage enhancement: The 2% per healer companions, the 30% from Smoke Screen, the 40% from Power Infusion, and the +100% from Garm red circle.

Also, on a related topic, Assault 6-piece bonus is a separate damage multiplier, which is indeed as described (so RF damage is tripled).

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