Make crafting higher level items deterministic cost

[Jose Sarmento]

So, we've all felt the dismay of crafting piece after piece (and at such a cost...) in search of those elusive level 75s... while I am aware that persistence pays off, I think it would be much better if the higher-than-70 level crafting was made deterministic rather than random:

- it would be better for the game. No exploits, no seed fixing, no lookaheads. Everyone on equal footing.
- it would be better for the players. You would farm mats to a very specific tangible goal, rather than to the uncertainty of "is 15m gold and 3K of each Greater Essence enough?". You would also not feel the dismay of not getting a 75 after exhausting your hard-earned mats and gold in an unlucky crafting streak.

SO here's what I suggest:

- change the Master Crafter perk to allow your characters to craft items X levels higher than their level. The perk would commence at Mastery Level 20 and allow you to craft items 2 levels higher - this applies to both sub-70 characters and to level70 ones, thus allowing you to craft level 72 pieces at the most.
At Mastery Level 30, you can craft 3 levels higher
At ML40, 4 levels higher
At ML50, 5 levels higher

Now instead of the current 1.025% chance of a level75 craft, you would instead take the base level70 costs and multiply them by 2 for each level above 70. So let's take a Eridanus, Greatstaff of the Magi as an example:

Level 70:
420K gold
100 Silver Ornament
100 Enchanted Leather
25 Mark of Titans
35x4 = 140 Greater Essences in total

Mats	Level 71	Level 72	Level 73	Level 74	Level 75
Gold	840K	1.68M	3.36M	6.72M	13.44M
Silver Ornament	200	400	800	1600	3200
Enchanted Leather	200	400	800	1600	3200
Mark of Titans	50	100	200	400	800
Greater Essences, total	280 (70 per attribute)	560 (140 per attribute)	1120 (280 per attribute)	2240 (560 per attribute)	4480 (1120 per attribute)

While this may appear tremendous, notice it is the equivalent of 32 level 70 crafts, which seems to be about the average number required for a level75 hit on a new character.

[Arionthe]

I think this is a grand idea. Making steady progress and seeing that finish line slowly approaching with perfect clarity would motivate me to grind that final mil/mats.

[duckel]

Just by reading this I got the motivation to grind another million gold. Before I havent farmed anything since last ANB

[ShotDead]

I'm ok with ANY cost till it removes RNG. Exploits start with RNG

[Arionthe]

Taking away RNG maybe music to players' ears, but not necessarily so for the makers of the game. It's a well proven game development principle that random reward system encourages greater time/money investment in the game. Think "just one more level and maybe I get lucky" thought process.

So while the OP idea might be good for sanity in a rational world... gamers are a masochistic crowd. Like the matrix, if everything is milk and honey.. the system collapses. It needs pain and suffering.

So how about this modification of the OP idea.

I give you TEMPERING ORBS.

Craftable items like CT that increases an item's level after its creation.

Tempering Orb Lv 1. raises item level from 70 -> 71 Costs a bit of everything

Tempering Orb Lv 2. raises item level from 71 -> 72 Costs a little more of everything

Tempering Orb Lv 3. raises item level from 72 -> 73 Costs 2x of Lv 2 Orb

Tempering Orb Lv 4. raises item level from 73 -> 74 Costs 2x of Lv 3 Orb

Tempering Orb Lv 5. raises item level from 74 -> 75 Costs 3x of Lv 4 Orb (perfection always costs just a little more than it should)

So there, two routes to that mythical Lv75. Pull that one armed bandit slot machine we called crafting table with the mastery perk (as it is now).... Or

Grind and grind, knowing every TL 100 gets you thatmuch closer to the Lv75 using tempering orbs.

[BAgate]

Actually Arionthe, I'd say the opposite. Since the introduction of lvl 75 items my interest in Eternium has cratered. Crafting is too expensive for volume to allow RNG to even out, so some bad luck can kill you. I've crafted more than 100 items since the change and no lvl 75, but everyone above me on the season leaderboard seems to have multiple of them. Essentially the season is now determined by RNG. So why bother?

[Jose Sarmento]

Actually Arionthe, I'd say the opposite. Since the introduction of lvl 75 items my interest in Eternium has cratered. Crafting is too expensive for volume to allow RNG to even out, so some bad luck can kill you. I've crafted more than 100 items since the change and no lvl 75, but everyone above me on the season leaderboard seems to have multiple of them. Essentially the season is now determined by RNG. So why bother?

^^ This. The so-called "gamer masochism" is basically the persistence to farm high-CL, perfect gear... in other words, an end-game character.
You enjoy the RNG lottery when it's a slim (but not like statistically impossible) chance for a good drop on a quick T100 run loot; that keeps it refreshing after the 100th (or 1000th) run.
You do *not* enjoy the RNG lottery when it takes a week-long farming efforts and, too bad so sad, gives you nothing.

That "well proven game development principle" is pure Bandwagon Fallacy. Instead, it's ALL about reward vs. effort. Satisfaction = Perception - Expectation is the universal truth, and this (current) method of Level75 crafting tends to fail on that equation.

Arionthe, while I technically wouldn't mind your variation, I think it would be simply needless complication; who in their right mind would play a lottery, knowing you can obtain the same rewards reliably for the same expected cost??

Plus likely exploits, ANBs, etc.

So in the interest of better clarity, I would prefer my idea. Where randomness is in *dire need* of usage in Eternium is in high level Trial drops. So much for the "motivatory RNG carrot" you allude to when everyting T100 onwards (I would even say now, T80 onwards) yields the same poop.

[Triggus]

This is one brilliant idea, that could be one of the thing that need to be done to lower level of frustration and players turn over....
On top of that make 71-72 celestials produce 2 CE's on salavage, 73-74 3xCE's, Rework drops/exp gained for TL 100+. Gem, gold amount and prices in the shop in line with current ingame economy (atm the only one worth buying is 100 game a day sub) you're losing earning potential here. Make sell items options similar to salvage ones so people can sell in bulks should they wish to.
It would be a good idea to increase sell value of set and unique items significantly so people have choice if they want to sell or salvage them depending on what resources the are lacking, so this be could source of money or mats yet not both at the same time - this wouldn't ruin balance while giving people more choices.
Just a few ideas from the top of my head that does not require rewriting the half of the game code... might be worth considering.

[Invector]

I also love this idea because I detest RNG in any game for any reason!!
I've put a great deal of time (and sometimes money) into many different games, only to eventually walk away because RNG is NOT my friend. A determinative outcome for me means I'll farm until my fingers bleed if that's what it takes. Knowing that I have a 100% chance of reaching my goal at some point keeps me going, while RNG almost always results in nothing but aggravation and lost interest.

[Chosen]

Why are we calling it RNG and not what it actually is? It's gambling.
I've spent 99% of my time in the season shooting ducks with a bazooka (what it feels like to do hundreds of 1.5 minutes TLL100 runs with a CL2200 BH) so that I get enough coins to use in the slot machine that is Ingrid. Because trying to hunt the biggest beasts that my toon can hunt (TL130+) takes more time and gives the same loot.

Back on topic, I like the idea, but crafting should be one of the many ways to get to the endgame, not BE the endgame.

[Jose Sarmento]

Why are we calling it RNG and not what it actually is? It's gambling.
I've spent 99% of my time in the season shooting ducks with a bazooka (what it feels like to do hundreds of 1.5 minutes TLL100 runs with a CL2200 BH) so that I get enough coins to use in the slot machine that is Ingrid. Because trying to hunt the biggest beasts that my toon can hunt (TL130+) takes more time and gives the same loot.

Back on topic, I like the idea, but crafting should be one of the many ways to get to the endgame, not BE the endgame.

Also seconded. I see no logic in rewarding near-mindless farming so much better than superhigh Trial pushing. The grinding levels is fun sometimes, when you just want a break or "connect to ground" or something, but I think the biggest rewards (gold, mats, items, Xp, everything) should always come from playing at the epitome of your skill.

That is an idea for another topic though...

[Shade Glow]

I'm sure I've made about 200 crafting attempts while trying to get a level 75 Eridanus. So far I have not been lucky enough. There is no wind left in my sails. It makes me feel pretty dejected, so I'll probably find something else to do instead. I can enjoy Eternium without pursuing such impossible goals.

[Chosen]

That is an idea for another topic though...

I actually think it fits well with your suggestion, it's part of it.
We should be able to farm lvl70+ items in a range of trials that represents the actual power of your toon.
TL100 unlocks lvl70+ items; lvl71 & lvl72 items drop regularly and you still get the current miniscule chance to drop a lvl75 item.
TL120 does the same as above but for lvl73 & lvl74 items and finally
TL130 unlocks a reasonable chance for lvl75s.

AND

In order for the above to work, we should be able to target craft a Lvl75 item for an amount of gold+mats that you suggested, in an effort to craft those last 1 or 2 pieces that don't seem to drop in our TL120+ farming.


Since crafting gives you exactly the stats you want, you should be able to target craft the level that you want (original post's suggestion) for a very high amount of resources, but you should be able to regularly drop higher level gear with the appropriate degree of RNG from monster killing.

Gambling can be ok if it involves grinding on your toon's limits to drop e.g. a lvl74 Tesla pistol with armor and damage reflect once every 2 hours of gameplay. I will happily go back to the grind the next day, to drop a better one and keep doing that until I drop a really good one. Or farm for a month and use up all my savings to craft one.

[Triggus]

I can only agree with all above. These are actually a good suggestions that wouldn't ruin game balance making it more playable and enjoyable experience.

Even in current model a little change I've already suggested would make game much more viable- simply increasing sell value of unique, set legendaries to the point it would aid crafting costs should players decide to sell this loot.

There is distinctive difference between farming mats in trials and farming gold in story mode. Both mats and gold is being constantly wasted in the crafting lottery thats granted. Yet for running TL100 in XP gear (however its boring), if all the mats gathered will disappear on failed attempts to craft decent gear - you will not have the feeling that time spend in trials was total waste of time as one of the golas was actually achieved, you got some more CL's which is important.

For farming Gold you got nothing, this is devastating very off-putting waste of time if your craft attempts will keep failing, and they will. So even if crafting itself is very painful experience it easier to swallow on the trials then farming story mode imo- and very minor changes would probably fix it.

For the long term the need to rethink the whole model. Currently the end game is split in 3 different activities Trial farming, Gold farming, Push. Every one done with different specialised characters and extremely time consuming. We end up playing our best characters in best gear maybe one 1% of play time!

Yet it seems incoming patches are rather newbies focused it might be indication devs are currently leaning for the model with high playerbase turnover, attracting new players knowing they will not stay for long. I might be wrong but I have feeling that actually seasoned, veteran players are the best source of revenue as pursuing end game goals and LB competition make people more likely to spend hard earned $ in game.

[RedJiminy]

There is distinctive difference between farming mats in trials and farming gold in story mode. Both mats and gold is being constantly wasted in the crafting lottery thats granted. Yet for running TL100 in XP gear (however its boring), if all the mats gathered will disappear on failed attempts to craft decent gear - you will not have the feeling that time spend in trials was total waste of time as one of the golas was actually achieved, you got some more CL's which is important.

For farming Gold you got nothing, this is devastating very off-putting waste of time if your craft attempts will keep failing, and they will. So even if crafting itself is very painful experience it easier to swallow on the trials then farming story mode imo- and very minor changes would probably fix it.

I hadn't realised how little I gain from failed crafting attempts quite so starkly.

What if we could keep something: What if crafting mastery level was not capped. All that crafting would eventually lead to better % chance of gaining a level when crafting, so that slowly we would move towards getting L75 items after enough attempts.