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Damage Reflect and Whirlwind

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  • Arionthe
    Another word on Deflection Mastery passive.

    In addition to the 5000 Deflection Rate, I could see a damage buff such as: 1/10th of Deflection Rating added to Power for calculating deflected damage.

    This gets a specific boost to deflected damage (which admittedly is low compared to other sources of damage) while not changing the meta for other attack/damage skills.

    If there is no short term plan of adding 2000 deflect rating enchantments... then the mantle/cloak base deflect rating should probably be increased to 7500 at least.

    This way, 7500(cloak) + 5000(passive) + 500 (glove enchant) = 13000 DR before active skill (WW) comes into play. That's 65% chance to absorb 30% damage. Even with 18000 WW DR rating as suggested, you are looking at 31000 total rating = 55% crit deflect rate. Definitely not overpowering when crit block at 95% is very much within reach. And that 31000 equals a not always on 3100 boost to power, pretty much acts like 75% damage boost near endgame.

    As a baseline comparison, I was able to generate 1m DPS pulling massive mobs at TL 89 with 8.8% deflect chance. No one is going to be pulling that massive of a map near peak trial... so even with all the suggestions implemented, we are looking at 10m DPS tops. Given the damage scaling, at TL149, we are looking at 2x TL109, 4x TL129, 8x TL149 or 80m DPS at peak. With trial dps regularly near 2B at the peak, this isn't over powering at all.

    Anyway just my thoughts here.

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  • Arionthe
    A quick illustration on what these WW and Juggernaut changes mean for an aspiring direct damage WW warrior (a rebirth of the famous toothpick D2 WW barb).

    WW normally has a CD of 30secs. Jugg6 bonus cuts it down to 21secs.

    Assume a normal endgame mid range AR (including mantle) of 2250 AR (1750 base + 500 mantle) you get 60% decrease in CD. Which further reduces the WW CD to 12.6s.

    Assuming a 10attack per second (under BR and frenzy buff plus sufficient # of archers), one avgs 3 triggers of alacrity (conservative) of 2s * 0.4 (reduction by AR) 0.8s per trigger or 2.4s of raw CD reduction per sec.

    Consider that WW animation doesn't trigger alacrity, 4s of WW goes by, alacrity now kicks in. On avg 2.5s later (2.5 + 2.5*2.4 = 8.5 which is just about 12.6-4), WW becomes available again.

    So 4/6.5=61.5% of the time you can spend whirling away.

    Now let's look at the new WW when paired with the Bladestorm Axes (the direct damage weapon set)

    WW avg damage is 3750% or 4687.5% when dual wielding.

    Cleave (mobbing attack) buffed by the correct butchery perk (1200%more normal attack damage = 13x) at level 10 = 350% *13 = 4550%

    The new WW JUST slightly outdamages the buff'd up Cleave. Which means WW doesn't represent a dps loss during mobbing situations. Very likely it's a big plus since Cleave doesn't hit everything around the player like WW will.

    Frenzy (single target) buffed by the correct butchery perk at level 10 = 580% * 1.25 (double strike %) * 13 = 9425%

    Recall the set bonus for Bladestorm Axes is 100% more damage to active target. This means WW actually does 4687.5% * 2 = 9375% to the active target. This is just about awash between the two. So in the single target situation WW is holding its own and not really a dps loss (measily 0.5% difference).

    The defensive buff lasts 3s so WWer is still protected most of the time (alacrity trigger can be a little random) before WWing again, hence cutting down all the frustrating deaths.

    Plus the whirlwind axe heals 3% hp every time WW connects (10times a second). WW then gives you everything, the damage in all situations, movement ability, defensive buff, recovery when paired with the right weapon set. Truly what a signature skill should have. Shockwave comes to mind.

    So a WW warrior can whirl to the heart's content.

    So calling to all the would be WWers, suppor this thread and make WW great again.

    Adrian (Developer) Red (Developer)

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  • Arionthe
    After giving it some more thoughts... I believe there is one more change to WW that's needed.

    Currently the defensive buff is applied to the targets hit by WW. This actually counteracts the potential application of Deflect Rating. Think if an elite archer is now doing 90% less damage, then the reflected damage will be 90% less as well.

    So I give you the new and improved WW.
    Ability Level 10:
    Deals 1000% weapon damage (900% is harder to do math besides WW is weak anyway so let's make the base an even 1000%)
    Damage increased by 25% when dual wielding.
    *Swirling air creates a cyclone armor for 6secs.
    Movement speed increased by 30%
    **Damage and defensive buffs increase linearly during the Whirlwind duration, capped at 4000% weapon damage, 30% damage reduction per equipped weapon, 8000 Deflect Rating.

    *Cyclone armor is just my name for the defensive buffs WW grants. It lasts for 6 seconds, 2 longer than the WW animation itself. This is so that WWer doesn't drop dead as soon as WW finishes.
    The starting stat for the cyclone armor is 15% DR per equipped weapon and 2000 Deflect Rating.

    **During the WW animation (4sec), damage ramps up
    1st sec: 1000%
    2nd sec: 2000%
    3rd sec: 3000%
    4th sec: 4000%
    This avg out around 2500% per sec.
    The cyclone armor lasts 6 secs, but the buffs increases during WW animation only (4sec)
    1st sec: 15% DR per equipped weapon, 2000 Deflect Rating
    2nd sec: 20% DR per equipped weapon, 4000 Deflect Rating
    3rd sec: 25% DR per equipped weapon, 6000 Deflect Rating
    4th sec: 30% DR per equipped weapon, 8000 Deflect Rating
    5th sec: 30% DR per equipped weapon, 8000 Deflect Rating
    6th sec: 30% DR per equipped weapon, 8000 Deflect Rating

    Thematically cyclone armor makes a lot of sense as the swirling air blunts the force of the incoming blows as well as redirecting some of them to the attackers. The current animation already matches the description as you see those air streaks surrounding the player.

    To make Juggernaut the undisputed set for WW, here is the slightly modified set 4 bonus.

    Juggernaut 4: Whirlwind damage and buff ramps up geometrically capped at 8000% WD, 45% damage reduction per weapon, 18000 Deflect Rating and cyclone armor lasts 7 secs instead of 6.
    Geometric instead of linear... let's see how this applies

    Weapon Damage:
    1st sec: 1000%
    2nd sec: 2000%
    3rd sec: 4000%
    4th sec: 8000%
    It doubles every second! So this avg out to 3750% Now this is more like it... probably changes the ratio from 17+ to 4 when compared to devastate, which I think is the proper ratio for a mobbing/single target skill

    Cyclone Armor:
    1st sec: 15% DR per weapon, 4000 Deflect Rating
    2nd sec: 20% DR per weapon, 6000 Deflect Rating
    3rd sec: 30% DR per weapon, 10000 Deflect Rating
    4th sec: 45% DR per weapon, 18000 Deflect Rating
    5th sec: 45% DR per weapon, 18000 Deflect Rating
    6th sec: 45% DR per weapon, 18000 Deflect Rating
    7th sec: 45% DR per weapon, 18000 Deflect Rating

    So how is that geometric? Well the base is 15% and 4000 DR, the increase was 5% and 2000 DR. So between 2nd and 3rd sec, increase is 10% and 4000 DR. 3rd and 4th sec would be 20% and 8000 DR... however it's capped at 45% so it stays at 45% instead of 50%.

    Now next consideration was what to make of Juggernaut 6 bonus. Devastate is perfectly matched with Bleed, but further increasing WW's power can potentially make WW the SW fuel of choice instead. Then we get a new best bleed that also happens to be the best direct damage set, just that it's juggernaut instead of warlord. So to avoid this situation, increasing WW would be a no go. Btw I toyed with the idea making Jugg6 bonus be ramping WW benefits exponentially instead of geometrically. Haha what fun it would have been... but too OP.

    So upping WW power is out, and whatever Jugg6 bonus ends up being, one requirement is that it doesn't help bleed too much. The way bleed works is spamming shockwave after getting some initial heavy damage in (triggering GW). So a DW bleed wouldn't be spamming WW.

    Thus Jugg6 should be
    Whirlwind cooldown reduced by 30%

    DW bleed wouldn't care about this while direct damage warrior can stay in that delirious state of bliss known as whirlwind more often. Win win

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  • Arionthe
    started a topic Damage Reflect and Whirlwind

    Damage Reflect and Whirlwind

    I have done some testing with damage reflect. It's a very interesting concept, reducing damage (ranged, magic and area) while reflecting those back to the attacker. The closest equivalent is block rating (warrior specific) with the sword and board passive. However it's night and day in terms of relative effectiveness.

    Issue 1: 250 DR gets one 1% DR chance. In game 40 BR gets one 1% block chance (despite the patch notes saying 50 per 1%). The lesser glove enchant offers both block rating:100 and DR:500. If both enchants should offer similar in game performance, then 250 DR per 1% chance should be changed to 200 DR per 1% chance.

    Issue 2: DR only absorbs 30% and reflect that damage back. There is no critical block like block chance (80% DR vs 40%). It would make sense for a similar meta, that is DR chance > 100% becomes critical DR, absorb 60% and reflect that damage back.

    Issue 3: Shield as an equipment offers significant amount of block rating by itself. ~2200 for Lv75 shield. This is roughly 55% block chance on its own. Cloak/Mantle gear slot makes perfect sense for a build in stat slot DR. Now I don't expect a perfect Lv75 mantle comes with 11000 DR (to equal a perfect shield in terms of block chance). But 5000, or 25% DR chance sounds reasonable to me. For table top DnD players, Cloak of Deflection should recall some fond memories.

    Issue 4: Lv75 perfect block stat is 128. Given the 40 block per % calculation, a single slot is worth 3.2% block chance. So the max lv 75 DR should be 640 instead of 510 from what I can see on reforge options.

    Issue 5: There should be a passive dedicated to DR available to every class. Mage currently has mage armor which offers 3000 DR plus +25% DR damage. Combined with their innate 2100 DR, mage has a 5100 DR built in. Now warrior having the same mage armor passive doesn't make much sense. Instead Deflection Mastery is a proper name. This could offer a flat 5000 DR with no + to DR damage just to be different from mage armor. Of course warrior needs to give up a passive to fit this in. I think most warriors will gladly give up Intense Training for Deflection mastery. I don't recall seeing Intense Training anywhere on the LB.

    Issue 6: Lesser enchant DR is 500, there should be greater and exotic enchants for DR to allow players that want to specialize in DR. Looking at relative power difference between lesser and greater, Greater DR enchant should offer 1000 DR while exotic DR enchant should offer 2000 DR.

    Issue 7: Open up more enchant slots for gears that currently don't offer any: helm, boots, pants, cloak. This will go a long way for any aspiring DR warriors/mages.

    Quick calculation: 2000 DR is 10% DR chance. 25% for cloak built in stat, 25% for DR passive, 10% for enchants (gloves, head, pants, cloak, boots) gives you 100% DR. Anything above that will give you critical DR. Stat slots are very valuable commodities. 3.2% chance per slot is a high price to pay for critical DR. Like Block, I think the road to critical DR should come from active skills.

    Hence the 2nd part of this post.

    I have thought long and hard about WW and how to make it competitive while not inadvertently further boost the already top shelf Warlord set. The WW proc currently is a significantly better way to access WW benefits than the active WW skill itself. It's quick (1sec or so vs 4sec) so the lack of alacrity and locking out of other skills during animation are manageable drawbacks. It also triggers WW benefits such as movement speed, damage reduction, sucking in of nearby mobs without using up a valuable skill slot. Best of all, given WW's rather pedestrian damage output, WW proc is the most efficient way to keep up the Butchery buff from Cleaver without suffering the full WW's numerous dealbreaking drawbacks. Thus the best Bleed set is also the best for direct damage build.

    The solution is to make WW a ramping skill. Like a chaingun, its effectiveness ramps up the longer it stays in the firing mode. So how to make a 4sec animation skill better than its 1sec proc version? Make each successive second more impactful. So the WW proc will only ever given you the weakest 1st sec benefits.

    Ability Level 10:
    Deals 1000% weapon damage (900% is harder to do math besides WW is weak anyway so let's make the base an even 1000%)
    Damage increased by 25% when dual wielding.
    Targets hit deal 15% less damage per equipped weapon for 2secs
    *Increases Damage Reflect Rating by 2000.
    **Damage increases by 1000%, Damage Reduction increases by 5% per equipped weapon, Damage Reflect Rating plus 2000 every second.
    Movement speed increased by 30%

    *So I added DR 2000. This makes a lot of sense as a spinning dervish creates a cyclone of air around, deflecting incoming attacks.

    Now the ramping part. So by
    second #2, WW does 2000% WD, 20%DR per weapon, 4000 Deflect Rating
    second #3, WW does 3000% WD, 25%DR per weapon, 6000 Deflect Rating
    second #4, WW does 4000% WD, 30%DR per weapon, 8000 Deflect Rating

    So this avg out to 2500% WD over 4 seconds with the heavier hitting come from the latter part of the animation. This actually makes WW far more competitive with devastate in mob situation, although probably still need something like 7targets to equalize. Still a lot better than the current 17+ situation. In a previous post, I laid out the fact that WW is severely lacking in the defensive department, thus more of a deathtrap than a fearsome skill (all except the full defender setup that can fall back on blocking). This ramping up of not only damage but also DR is critical in order for WW practitioner to survive peak trials as a DW. Quite frankly this won't be enough.

    To further enhance WW's effectiveness, here is a modified Juggernaut 4 bonus (we still want WW to be that signature skill for Direct Damage).

    Jugg4: Whirlwind ramps up 100% faster to a max of 7000% WD, 45%DR and 14000 Deflect Rating and lasts 3 seconds instead of 2 after WW finishes.
    So what does this really look like?
    second #2:3000% WD, 25%DR per weapon, 6000 Deflect Rating
    second #3:5000% WD, 35%DR per weapon, 10000 Deflect Rating
    second#4: 7000% WD, 45%DR per weapon, 14000 Deflect Rating

    So Jugg4 WW avgs about 4000% WD, ends with 90% DR for DW (needed to survive any kind of mob pull at 150+), + 70% chance to DR. Recall earlier one can achieve 100% DR with expanded enchants and passive, Lv75 perfect cloak. This makes 75% critical DR possible. Even higher if someone wants to dedicate gear stat slots. DR critical % should be capped at 90% (just lower than critical block's 95% max).

    Mage's frostbeam is also ramping skill in case anyone wondering if ramping exists in the Eternium world. I think Death from Above is a potential candidate for adding Damage Reflect buff. As far as BH is concerned, since they are clearing 160+, maybe show them some DR love when the other two classes close the gap.