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  • Stats - Remove the Fog!

    Math = Nightmare for most.
    The single most frustrating aspect of these games, especially when you start getting to the higher levels is tweeking your characters stats. The non-Maths or rather the lazy (Me) could care less for studying higher grade mathematics or even the fine intricacies of a games STATS!

    We do still want to know where we should be allocating our stats (both equipment and in this games case Champ Points)

    The problem is without first doing complex sums we really don't know if we are allocating or collecting gear with the stats we most need. And the main reason for this is due to exponential diminishing returns or more importantly capped limits.

    Would it not be possible for example on the "Stat" page to add a column that indicates a stats current percentage level of ultimate?



    RAKO LOJA CUSE 8372 - Coldet
    QIVO CUBU VEPO 8185 - The Siren

    Check out the DPS Calculator - Pre Beta

  • #2
    Coldet (Not having a go at you - just making some general comments!)

    Nothing higher grade maths about basic percentages!

    How boring would it be to always know exactly where to put your points and no mystery about how to balance characters. Might as well not have the ability to equip anything or allocate anything, just spend hours every day clicking on mobs and watching your numbers go up.

    Wait a sec, which mob to choose to hit? Hmmm, too much choice, have game auto target for you. Problem solved.

    Wait a sec, I reached a branch in the map, do I go left or right. Hmmmmm, too much choice, have the game auto move for you, Problem solved.

    Wait a sec, which map do I run? Hmmmm, too much choice, have only 1 map. Problem solved.

    Wait a sec, when do I start the game? Hmmmm, too much choice, have the game play itself.

    Problem solved.

    Last edited by AllAboard; 09-23-2017, 11:15 AM.

    Comment


    • #3
      really not sure what any of that has to with my opening post. All I wanna do is enjoy playing the game. If I wanted to play a Maths game I'm certain I could probably find tons of them.

      and as far as automation is concerned - sigh
      RAKO LOJA CUSE 8372 - Coldet
      QIVO CUBU VEPO 8185 - The Siren

      Check out the DPS Calculator - Pre Beta

      Comment


      • #4
        Hey Coldet
        Sorry for cheeky reply above... till vanity items are introduced,

        Stat combinations levels and CLs is all that makes each Mid/End-Game player's characters unique from another player's character...
        Players choose stats according to their play style!
        E.g: the forum Highly recommends a full on DPS, movement build for my cute BH, but i am really bad at moving out of incoming pokes...
        so I made a Fat Vitality Bunny! /(^w^)\ with a few armor to boot... yes i progress MUCH slower then other BHs... but i at-least have fun playing and not keep dying... (P.s.: if anyone even suggest I change mains to a warrior due to playstyle, I will completely ignore you! )

        This bunny is saving her carrots for winter season... cos above 700 CL points goes only to Damage yes?
        So I'll just invest armor/jewelry stats to keeping alive... and dodging... damage will build up later...
        Also cos the road map said vit-to-hp ratio gets buffy next update so I want to be the fattest Bunny ever!

        Please don't be mad if this topic sparks cheeky replies...

        An in-Game stats calculator Would be welcomed though when the new stats system comes that convert all % into ratings...
        +1
        Last edited by Nightlyric; 09-24-2017, 02:45 AM.
        Self-cleaning Bunny...
        If my post don't make me smile on re-read...
        *poof!*~~ It's gone... (In my mouth it goes!)
        ~om~nom~nom~nom...
        Making the world a funny place~ one bunny-pellet at a time~

        Comment


        • #5
          Hi fellow math-adverse gamer, there is a simple and efficient method that will work for all builds under all situations.

          Let's use the Offense tab for illustration (disregard skill boosts for now):
          Each CPt has a value of: 2,5 power, 5 crit rating, 1% crit dmg and 0.5% attk spd

          - max power on item is 90 = 36 cps
          - max crit rate on item is 90 = 18 cps
          - max crit dmg on item is 60% = 60 cps
          - max attk spd on item is 14.5% = 29 cps

          Therefore,
          The stats of high value should be obtained from items, and low value should be invested using CPts.
          In precisionem non est in perfectionem.

          [The pursuit of] Precision is not perfection.

          Comment


          • #6
            I agree with the OP.

            I think complexity in terms of a variety of builds in an RPG is great. But complexity in simply understanding how stats work is not.

            When you are forced to read complicated guides to even figure out what things do, I think that's problematic.

            Even simple things are not clear. The stats aren't explained in the game, and many have overlapping concepts or synonymous names. There's "Vitality" and "Life". How are they related? I don't really know. There's "Toughness" and "Armor". What's the difference? How do "Block Chance" and "Dodge Chance" and "Parry Chance" relate to Toughness or other stats?

            But the worst thing is the jewelry. Grindy, confusing and needlessly complicated. And way too powerful relative to other items. It's relatively simple to say that people should, over time, figure out most items in the game, like armor and weapons. But jewelry holds more stats than any other slots, and that system is a major turnoff to new players IMO.

            Comment


            • #7
              I don't really see the problem here. With CLs the Reset btn costs nothing. It allows you can change the configuration and see how it impacts your stats. With gear, clicking on an item shows how it compares to your currently equipped item making it easy to choose between the two. With crafting, you can see what the result will be before actually craft an item. No need for any math other than understanding if one number or percentage is larger than another. The math however can be great if you are interested in it, but by no means necessary imo.

              I do agree with Qeltar that some stats are unclear or overlapping, but I like having multiple ways of tweeking.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Qeltar View Post
                I agree with the OP.

                I think complexity in terms of a variety of builds in an RPG is great. But complexity in simply understanding how stats work is not.

                When you are forced to read complicated guides to even figure out what things do, I think that's problematic.

                Even simple things are not clear. The stats aren't explained in the game, and many have overlapping concepts or synonymous names. There's "Vitality" and "Life". How are they related? I don't really know. There's "Toughness" and "Armor". What's the difference? How do "Block Chance" and "Dodge Chance" and "Parry Chance" relate to Toughness or other stats?

                But the worst thing is the jewelry. Grindy, confusing and needlessly complicated. And way too powerful relative to other items. It's relatively simple to say that people should, over time, figure out most items in the game, like armor and weapons. But jewelry holds more stats than any other slots, and that system is a major turnoff to new players IMO.


                Toughness is an indication of Survivability:
                More Armour = More Survivability
                More Dodge/Parry = More Survivability + higher chance of triggering some effects.
                More Life = More Survivability
                More Life on Hit = More Survivability


                More Armour = Less Damage Taken = More Toughness = More Survivability


                More Vitality = More Life:
                Although it might seem that it is pointless to have a stat like Vitality when it translates directly to life it is there for practical reasons. Having Vitality, rather than just life allows the game designers to have different classes respond in different ways to it. A tank may get 20 points of life for each point of Vitality, whereas a Ranged Class might get 10 Life, but perhaps also some extra dodge. You can have items effecting Life and Vitality in different ways. A character generally has a fixed amount of Vitality, but its Max Current Life can fluctuate with Auras, Potions, Buffs etc. the Life pool is more dynamic.


                I largely agree with you on the Jewellery. It can and should be made more clear as to how it works as it is extremely costly, in time, gold, gemstones, gems (potentially) and effort. In addition, it uses up a lot of inventory space and is just overall a big pain in the behind.
                Last edited by AllAboard; 09-25-2017, 11:37 AM.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Coldet View Post
                  Math = Nightmare for most.
                  Well, if you are "lazy and could care less", it's natural that math (however simple) remains a nightmare for you. I "could care less" about cooking, which is why preparing dinner is a "Nightmare" for me.

                  Originally posted by Coldet View Post
                  The problem is without first doing complex sums
                  Complex sums involve complex numbers, those with a real and an imaginary part. These are NORMAL sums, such as we all do in our everyday life. Complaining about the "hidden information" in the game (such as the Vitality vs. Life mystery) is fair; complaining that the game requires "higher grade mathematics" makes as much sense as writing to the IRS complaining that they should pre-fill the tax forms for you.

                  (to be clear: I am *not* insulting your intelligence - quite the opposite! I am saying *exactly* that you call Math a "nightmare", not because you aren't smart enough to understand it, but simply because you don't bother to. And that makes it your problem, not the game's.)

                  Now, criticism aside:

                  Consider that learning/discovering the subtle points of this kind of game can also be entertaining in itself. There is fun in learning how Rings fuse, and how you can obtain the most stats out of a Legendary ring; there is rather *less* fun in learning that Parry/Block/Dodge are capped at 95% (if you learn the "hard way" as I did), but there is fun in learning that "preemptively" so you focus on Vitality/Armor instead.

                  In other words, I do think your laziness is costing you some of the interesting aspects that the game could provide - but if you are sure about not wanting to delve into numbers, here's what you do:

                  First you put all CPs into Critical Rating;
                  More than 1500 (total) we can say you don't need.
                  A guide for the other CP tabs isn't really worth making,
                  But - after CR, put your Offense points into Attack Speed.

                  On a Warrior 10,000 Armor should suffice,
                  And for a Bounty Hunter I think 6,000 would be nice.
                  For a Mage (at least for now), there is really no need,
                  But make sure your Boots and Pants have Movement Speed.

                  You can't have too much Power - the more the better.
                  Same for Attack Speed - you can always be quicker!
                  And it will heal you - aim for 3,000 to 5,000 of Life on Hit
                  Heck, AS even helps your cooldowns more than a bit.

                  For this reason, generally you can forget Ability Rate -
                  But try to get an Integralas Mantle to at least compensate.
                  Forget Damage Reflect, Life Regeneration, Extra Gold,
                  Even Extra XP often condemns an item to be sold.

                  Don't rely on Parry/Block/Dodge - you'll be sad.
                  But for Dodge on Cape and Gloves a Bounty Hunter will be glad.
                  Vitality is the Warrior's key - pack as much as you can find!
                  Same for the Bounty Hunter, and even the Mage shouldn't mind.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Notwithstanding the unwarranted condescension dished out by a minority of math nerds, I empathize with you Coldet . I'm sure Eternium was NOT designed to be a math lesson to turn off players who are arithmetically disinclined. Surely, a "Strategy ARPG" must provide the basic information to chart (calculate) an optimal course of action, instead of forcing the newb to go begging to condescending veterans. I have been repeatedly trying hard to squeeze out basic information (from developers & veterans alike) on the interrelationship between the different stats, not to much avail. This prior knowledge of the interrelationships is essential to perform any "basic" mathematical analysis BEFORE making the strategic decision of selecting a specific hero build. Here, I emphasize that the calculation is the science, the gameplay is the art—different players may choose to play differently, but the method of calculating stats is the same for all. This "method" must be simple & self-evident, NOT discovered by irreversible trials & errors.

                    What amuses me is the vaunted "mystery" (a.k.a. trial-and-error flying by the seat of one's pants) so celebrated by a loud minority. This game does not allow "Undo" on strategy (a design rule violation). Once the player tries something & gets it wrong, there is no "do not save" option, so the player has to continue with the mistake. Contrary to the tall claims of self-proclaimed math aficionados, the game does NOT provide the basic information on stats to make basic analytical calculations. For e.g., how do I make the calculations for increasing my Damage stat if I don't know which stats impact it. Of course, the "mystery" buffs would scorn, "just try & see". Indeed, some prefer to jump into the car and "just drive" to the distant destination without a map (and get bad advice from bystanders along the way). So much for "strategy" ARPG...!

                    PS: I suspect most veterans (after having made massive mistakes in early gameplay) get their stats information from Developer posts in this Forum or via private chats with developers & claim that they "intuited" the knowledge, which most do not share or some cast these pearls with contempt... Seriously?

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Prakash Bebington View Post
                      Notwithstanding the unwarranted condescension dished out by a minority of math nerds, I empathize with you Coldet . I'm sure Eternium was NOT designed to be a math lesson to turn off players who are arithmetically disinclined. Surely, a "Strategy ARPG" must provide the basic information to chart (calculate) an optimal course of action, instead of forcing the newb to go begging to condescending veterans. I have been repeatedly trying hard to squeeze out basic information (from developers & veterans alike) on the interrelationship between the different stats, not to much avail. This prior knowledge of the interrelationships is essential to perform any "basic" mathematical analysis BEFORE making the strategic decision of selecting a specific hero build. Here, I emphasize that the calculation is the science, the gameplay is the art—different players may choose to play differently, but the method of calculating stats is the same for all. This "method" must be simple & self-evident, NOT discovered by irreversible trials & errors.

                      What amuses me is the vaunted "mystery" (a.k.a. trial-and-error flying by the seat of one's pants) so celebrated by a loud minority. This game does not allow "Undo" on strategy (a design rule violation). Once the player tries something & gets it wrong, there is no "do not save" option, so the player has to continue with the mistake. Contrary to the tall claims of self-proclaimed math aficionados, the game does NOT provide the basic information on stats to make basic analytical calculations. For e.g., how do I make the calculations for increasing my Damage stat if I don't know which stats impact it. Of course, the "mystery" buffs would scorn, "just try & see". Indeed, some prefer to jump into the car and "just drive" to the distant destination without a map (and get bad advice from bystanders along the way). So much for "strategy" ARPG...!

                      PS: I suspect most veterans (after having made massive mistakes in early gameplay) get their stats information from Developer posts in this Forum or via private chats with developers & claim that they "intuited" the knowledge, which most do not share or some cast these pearls with contempt... Seriously?
                      Let's pay the "veterans" some respect because without their "trial and errors", the community would have less knowledge and direction than it has now. But yeah, "occasional" dev guidance also paved the way to where we are now and where we will be.

                      Leaving it's player base in the dark to fend for themselves, experiment, or do trial and error might just be the intention of the game developers. It's a grand strategy that most, if not all games, share. It's purpose is to let the players get curious, explore, and interact and share as a community to create excitement and play through value. If everything is black and white, numbers and data, or charts and graphs, the game would be less enticing to "majority" of the players. Let's leave the math and science to the developers or programmers, and just sit back, relax, get fat and have fun grinding mindlessly for hours on this hack and slash RPG.

                      Sometimes "knowing it all" is less fun than shooting in the dark.
                      HATO ZAKA LOCO 4594

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Prakash Bebington View Post
                        Notwithstanding the unwarranted condescension dished out by a minority of math nerds, I empathize with you Coldet . I'm sure Eternium was NOT designed to be a math lesson to turn off players who are arithmetically disinclined. Surely, a "Strategy ARPG" must provide the basic information to chart (calculate) an optimal course of action, instead of forcing the newb to go begging to condescending veterans. I have been repeatedly trying hard to squeeze out basic information (from developers & veterans alike) on the interrelationship between the different stats, not to much avail. This prior knowledge of the interrelationships is essential to perform any "basic" mathematical analysis BEFORE making the strategic decision of selecting a specific hero build. Here, I emphasize that the calculation is the science, the gameplay is the art—different players may choose to play differently, but the method of calculating stats is the same for all. This "method" must be simple & self-evident, NOT discovered by irreversible trials & errors.

                        What amuses me is the vaunted "mystery" (a.k.a. trial-and-error flying by the seat of one's pants) so celebrated by a loud minority. This game does not allow "Undo" on strategy (a design rule violation). Once the player tries something & gets it wrong, there is no "do not save" option, so the player has to continue with the mistake. Contrary to the tall claims of self-proclaimed math aficionados, the game does NOT provide the basic information on stats to make basic analytical calculations. For e.g., how do I make the calculations for increasing my Damage stat if I don't know which stats impact it. Of course, the "mystery" buffs would scorn, "just try & see". Indeed, some prefer to jump into the car and "just drive" to the distant destination without a map (and get bad advice from bystanders along the way). So much for "strategy" ARPG...!

                        PS: I suspect most veterans (after having made massive mistakes in early gameplay) get their stats information from Developer posts in this Forum or via private chats with developers & claim that they "intuited" the knowledge, which most do not share or some cast these pearls with contempt... Seriously?
                        Two different questions here.

                        One is, "should the game's calculation formulas be clearly stated and easily available for strategic decision and planning?". I fully agree the answer is YES.

                        Another is, "should players not have to bother understanding those formulas (and how they relate to key character build aspects), and instead have the game provide additional ancillary information that allows one to make the same strategic build decisions *without* having to learn and understand the game's calcs?". And that is where I say, NO.

                        If you want to learn and understand before making - as you very well put it - "irreversible trial & errors", that is a Good Thing, and you *should* have the resources for that made available without having to rely on "begging to condescending veterans". (To be fair, there are quite a few fairly detailed Guides in this forum, which I think is something we can call "easily available". But not all information, I agree.)

                        But if you, on the contrary, do *not* want to learn and understand - that's on you. For newbies and veterans alike.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Let's pay the "veterans" some respect because without their "trial and errors", the community would have less knowledge and direction than it has now.
                          Mhongix : Surely you will agree with me that respect is mutual, and none deserve to be disrespected/ condescended simply for asking a question. And respect is truly due where knowledge is freely offered without any attendant ridicule.

                          If everything is black and white, numbers and data, or charts and graphs, the game would be less enticing to "majority" of the players.
                          I'm positive that "majority" does not care about visiting the Forum seeking or sharing information on gameplay mechanics. This group can still choose NOT to analyze the stats information, if provided within the game that Coldet requested. Why block the supposed "minority" that seeks this info?

                          Let's leave the math and science to the developers or programmers, and just sit back, relax, get fat and have fun grinding mindlessly for hours on this hack and slash RPG.
                          Ah, indeed, the blind driving! But some DO prefer to have a map before diving into the journey & NOT waste time... Adults play games to relax, not to waste time (which jobless teens have aplenty). Perhaps, they should go find some other intelligent "strategy" game, instead of mindless "hack & slash".

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            To be fair, there are quite a few fairly detailed Guides in this forum, which I think is something we can call "easily available".
                            Yes, indeed! But this one surely is NOT easily available, not to mention outdated...

                            BTW, Jose Sarmento , I got many vital inputs from your comments spread across several guides (I had to plow through all the guides & their comments to unearth a few gems). I have acknowledged your help here.
                            Last edited by Prakash Bebington; 09-29-2017, 12:31 PM.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Prakash Bebington View Post
                              Mhongix : Surely you will agree with me that respect is mutual, and none deserve to be disrespected/ condescended simply for asking a question. And respect is truly due where knowledge is freely offered without any attendant ridicule.
                              Want I meant is to respect their contributions

                              Originally posted by Prakash Bebington View Post


                              I'm positive that "majority" does not care about visiting the Forum seeking or sharing information on gameplay mechanics. This group can still choose NOT to analyze the stats information, if provided within the game that Coldet requested. Why block the supposed "minority" that seeks this info?
                              Coldet blocked himself from the info he seek by choosing NOT to analyze the formulas and mechanics, not the alleged "condescending veterans".

                              Originally posted by Prakash Bebington View Post
                              Ah, indeed, the blind driving! But some DO prefer to have a map before diving into the journey & NOT waste time... Adults play games to relax, not to waste time (which jobless teens have aplenty). Perhaps, they should go find some other intelligent "strategy" game, instead of mindless "hack & slash".
                              It was sarcasm, though apparently I'm not good at it.
                              I was jesting.
                              HATO ZAKA LOCO 4594

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