Hp pool and recovery stat

[Arionthe]

I am about to set off a hornet's nest I think with my next suggestion. But I think it is a needed conversation so the game can continue to evolve in the direction of true distinct and varied play styles.

Currently investment into hp pool is necessary but unrewarding step in any build. The primary reason is that mob damage is high relative to the hp pool but balanced against the massive recovery mostly through LoH. This creates the incentive system to reward recovery over hp by a large margin. Giving the rise to the generally accepted "just enough hp to not get one shotted".

A consequence of this is that most of the game encounters are of the trash variety. Meaning a char can be surrounded and smoking a cigar without any need to do anything but to see the massive recovery (LoH on high # of attacks) cancels out mob damage.

On bosses, a char that has double the investment in hp pool fares not much better than one that doesn't but have similar recovery stat. So all playing styles become similar. Just whack as fast as you can and hope the recovery can keep pace.

Lets make hp pool a real variable in the future. The first step in the beta is a step in the right direction but I think doesn't go nearly far enough.

Recovery (most LoH) needs to be reduced enough such that when surrounded by a mob of elites, char's hp bar should slowly drain. Currently either the mobs are making no dent or hp drains so fast (less than 1 sec or two) it is game over. Again with recovery reduced, then mob dmg can also be scaled down so that the current situation of too high mob dmg vs hp pool will automatically solve itself.

[Nightlyric]

The first step in the beta is a step in the right direction but I think doesn't go nearly far enough.

Yes!
According to many parties another new Bill to Repeal and Replace the old health system doesn't go nearly far enough...
Many are calling for a more drastic reforms and rollbacks to ....

*Aid rushes on set to whisper in Mitch's ears...*
Wha! I am in the wrong place?!
*wildly looking around*
"How did I get here!"
" Where am I!"

^--- Hornet's nest, the first turtle-hornet hybrid....

Sorry OP for straying from topic...
Only random brain farts plays in my mind when dreaming up a reply for this post...

P.s.: disclaimer: I am not from the US of A but I am really sorry to say when World News comes around to our media backyard...
We tend to grab popcorn nowadays...
(also just this month we got our First Female(yay!?) President in almost the same unsatisfactory(?) way America got "HIM" so we are in glass houses too... cheers!)

[Mhongix]

I am about to set off a hornet's nest I think with my next suggestion. But I think it is a needed conversation so the game can continue to evolve in the direction of true distinct and varied play styles.

Currently investment into hp pool is necessary but unrewarding step in any build. The primary reason is that mob damage is high relative to the hp pool but balanced against the massive recovery mostly through LoH. This creates the incentive system to reward recovery over hp by a large margin. Giving the rise to the generally accepted "just enough hp to not get one shotted".

A consequence of this is that most of the game encounters are of the trash variety. Meaning a char can be surrounded and smoking a cigar without any need to do anything but to see the massive recovery (LoH on high # of attacks) cancels out mob damage.

On bosses, a char that has double the investment in hp pool fares not much better than one that doesn't but have similar recovery stat. So all playing styles become similar. Just whack as fast as you can and hope the recovery can keep pace.

Lets make hp pool a real variable in the future. The first step in the beta is a step in the right direction but I think doesn't go nearly far enough.

Recovery (most LoH) needs to be reduced enough such that when surrounded by a mob of elites, char's hp bar should slowly drain. Currently either the mobs are making no dent or hp drains so fast (less than 1 sec or two) it is game over. Again with recovery reduced, then mob dmg can also be scaled down so that the current situation of too high mob dmg vs hp pool will automatically solve itself.

If you've gone through the 1.2.55 BETA updates, you will see that the devs are going to the direction of re-balancing the vitality and LOH stats.

Yes!
According to many parties another new Bill to Repeal and Replace the old health system doesn't go nearly far enough...
Many are calling for a more drastic reforms and rollbacks to ....

*Aid rushes on set to whisper in Mitch's ears...*
Wha! I am in the wrong place?!
*wildly looking around*
"How did I get here!"
" Where am I!"

^--- Hornet's nest, the first turtle-hornet hybrid....

Sorry OP for straying from topic...
Only random brain farts plays in my mind when dreaming up a reply for this post...

P.s.: disclaimer: I am not from the US of A but I am really sorry to say when World News comes around to our media backyard...
We tend to grab popcorn nowadays...
(also just this month we got our First Female(yay!?) President in almost the same unsatisfactory(?) way America got "HIM" so we are in glass houses too... cheers!)

You are going to get tweeted for that.

[Humus]

Yes!
According to many parties another new Bill to Repeal and Replace the old health system doesn't go nearly far enough...
Many are calling for a more drastic reforms and rollbacks to ....

*Aid rushes on set to whisper in Mitch's ears...*
Wha! I am in the wrong place?!
*wildly looking around*
"How did I get here!"
" Where am I!"

^--- Hornet's nest, the first turtle-hornet hybrid....

Sorry OP for straying from topic...
Only random brain farts plays in my mind when dreaming up a reply for this post...

P.s.: disclaimer: I am not from the US of A but I am really sorry to say when World News comes around to our media backyard...
We tend to grab popcorn nowadays...
(also just this month we got our First Female(yay!?) President in almost the same unsatisfactory(?) way America got "HIM" so we are in glass houses too... cheers!)

No one ever argues politics here. Don't believe the media, they are overdoing everything, making as if everything is the end of the world.
It wasn't unsatisfactory, just the people voting for him are much quieter.

[Arionthe]

I know the latest beta is starting to rebalance between hp pool and recovery. I was just saying in my estimation the step taken won't be enough.
Simplify to the basics, there are three attributes in this game. Damage output, hp pool and recovery rate of that hp pool. Currently the game difficulty is scaling on two of those factors. Damage output and recovery. Damage output determines how high a trial you can complete in time. Recovery determines how sustainable your char is facing said mobs. Hp pool really isn't considered more than minimal vit needed to take a hit. I'm arguing for a future that hp pool plays a more prominent role in build design going forward. But this won't happen until the mob damage is in relative balance with the hp pool. Currently mob damage is balanced for recovery stat. Therefore it is way too high for the hp pool (if you ignore recovery completely). Imagine this game without recovery. We couldn't make any forward progress.
Increasing hp pool by 30% isn't going to fix a problem that is requiring a 5x change. Allow me to predict what will happen. Players will simply reduce their hp pool investment by 25% and reinvest those stats to recovery. Tata we are now right back to where we were before.
To change the paradigm, we need to have mob damage that is somewhat scaling to the hp pool instead of solely to recovery. Because players will always choose the most effective route so unless the 5x imbalance between hp pool and recovery is changed, all changes on the margin will be min max away by player choices.
To summarize, mob damage is way too high for the hp pool we have, but it isn't too high relative to the recovery stat we can gain. When a single attack from a boss can leave you at the edge of death, how can additional investment in hp pool make a real difference? It doesn't, thus we have a stat that has minimized importance in the functioning of this great game.

Possible fix: recovery is the product of LoH and attacks per sec. enforcing a large diminishing return will actually tilt the balance. Let's do a little math.
Max recovery: 10 x 4k (factoring beta's decrease, with some effort you can still reach 4k LoH per hit) = 40k a sec.
lets say we lower that 40k to 11k as a goal.
1st attack you get 100% LoH value, next attack at 60% then 40% then 20% and 10% for rest of attacks in the sec
dual wield 10 attacker will have
4k + 2.4k + 1.6k + 0.8k + 6*0.4k = 11.2k.

Dual wilder with 10 attack vs 7 attack one handed basically has a 10% recovery advantage instead of 30%. One can play with the % to give dual wield a bigger bonus. Such as 100% 50% 20% rest of the attacks in a sec.

Now with some heavy investment into vit, you should get 100k to 150k actual hp. So max recovery can completely refill the hp bar in 10-13secs. That seems reasonable especially if mob damage is concurrently reduced to 33% of current values. Now you can actually tank a few hits. This is important in my view because it affords the player some precious time to actually mix skills and movements when current game doesn't allow/reward that play style.

Red (Developer) Again I applaud the beta's change on hp pool and recovery. I just think it doesn't go far enough to really change the game meta. Therefore it won't really achieve the balance that I hope the Devs are going for.