Recovery mechanic

[Bounty]

SS doesn't revive minions so you have much less attack speed especially during boss fights.

That's a pretty big downgrade.

[Humus]

I haven't done anything yet with the closed Beta. What was nerfed? Wllly said something about piercing being "off". Anything else. BH is my main hero......

SS doesn't revive minions so you have much less attack speed especially during boss fights.

[Jage]

This has more to do with your HP pool and device performance. On PC, your 1.8k loh with singularity into a mob should make you immortal (provided that you are still normal attacking so that the shield bubble is getting constantly refreshed). The other factor is HP pool. Let me make this example.

You have 10 Hp pool, your singularity is generating 10000 hp/sec. You are surrounded by a mob of 20 doing 100 dmg per second. Now your recovery is enough to sustain/face tank this mob. However your HP pool can't. There is simply not enough HP buffer to take the volatility of your HP bar, meaning enough damage hits you before that massive recovery can bring you back from brink of death to full health.

Same character but now with 1000 hp pool. Now that mob of 20 doing 100/sec (total 2k/sec) will never be able to threaten you as the recovery vastly outnumber the incoming damage.

So dying during singularity proc is not evidence of singularity driven recovery isn't OP. I don't know how high of a trial your mage can enter. But do this, equip jewelry made of VIT/LOH/ARMOR/AR (very cheap to make as you aren't using CD, CR). Use your CP to get enough haste for 6.5+ attack speed (you can equip a shield and drop the glass canon passive for even greater tanking power). I'm pretty sure you can basically stand and dodge nothing at your highest trial. Of course you won't be killing anything. The difference is doing the same jewelry on BH or W won't come close for the same face tanking ability. This should prove my point about singularity driven recovery is OP.

I see what u mean and the numbers do show it, In the case i was talking about my death came from several Crits and almost instant death recovery cant help there even at best..,, but i dont have problems in a good pull sing does alot combined with loh/recovery, in a perfect world..!

[Purple Potato]

Arionthe,

I am inclined to agree with you, but what you are asking will considerably weaken Mage. Then you would have BH as king of the classes. As you can see by the LB, mage and BH and both stuck at 122 TL. Which tells me that the Devs did a hell of a job balancing mage and BH. So if you weaken mage, then you must also weaken BH. Why cause two fixes when are you have to do is fix one....buff up warrior.

Top Warrior is at 118 TL. Quite a bit behind. The easy fix is to upgrade Warrior. This is the only class that does NOT have a viable 6/6 build. Therein lies the problem. The simplest and fairest solution is to update Warrior. Give warrior a 6/6 build. Ultimate goal is to upgrade warrior enough so that the Top warrior will be able to achieve TL 122 just like the other classes.

Since I haven't read past this yet and want to respond to this before I forget-- here it is.

I can easily get to 124 with mage but just need the right maps.

Also a BH has finished 123.

[Suzy.Bae]

I can get behind that. Basically LoH becomes flat number damage reduction when Armor and such offers % reduction etc. Then recovery is made up of life regeneration, some Heal of Time skills (need more in that case for every class), and potion quaffing.

The key is make recovery controlled so it has no chance of overwhelming mob damage; thus reducing encounters to cake walks.

It never has the chance of overwhelming mob damage. Like I said, Mage dies with a flick of a finger if mobs or arrows hit you. At 70k HP, with a singularity casted on a group of mobs, the heal looks basically like an apple without pauses (continuous healing animation). If you lower that at all, then if a Mage caught even just a single arrow again (yes just one at half HP), he's dead (Higher trial wise) not to mention elite projectiles and much more Melee elite hit.

...My end game is actually trying to convince the Devs to LOWER the mob damage so that our HP pool becomes more than just a 1hko buffer. To do that, I just want to point out some weirdness in the current meta as related to singularity LoH.

Go straight to the point then. It would be a better feedback/suggestion to get D efender set to increase HP or give a bonus to Endurance so the HP pool of Warriors can be buffed. (In anyway it's not made right, Warrior will become OP beyond imagination as they can deal stronger damage than mage if they can tank 5 mobs for example, spam RS & DT, run away, Shockwave.. rinse repeat.



You don't need to mess with a balanced class just to ask Devs to give some love to Warrior (They already said they'll do something about it - Soon TM). You should never compare skill mechanics of other classes unless they both have the same gameplay and strats being used on Trials.

[Suzy.Bae]

I haven't done anything yet with the closed Beta. What was nerfed? Wllly said something about piercing being "off". Anything else. BH is my main hero......

Minions no longer gets resurrected with the use of Smoke screen.

[Arionthe]

Arionthe,

Another way to look at it and it seem to me that Warrior and Mage are balanced and BH is underpowered.

If you think about it, this game was originally developed for mobile. Not PC. If you take away PC players from the LB. You would have mobile:

Mage 119 TL
BH 115 (stalker)
Warrior 118

As far as i know, the highest mobile Assault is 105-108 ish. It's the entrance of PC platform that has altered the original landscape to the detriment of Warrior class. PC made Assault 6 the champion build for BH that was not possible before with mobile.

I did mobile assault to 110 during ANB2 but your point is taken.

My post isn't about class balance per se. I don't really care much about class balance (favoring SW, basically one step below arcanist mage, teaches one to let go of class balance pretty quick). I'm perfectly fine with one class out damaging or out performing in some aspect as long as the difference isn't so dramatic (less than 2X let's say). I just find the singularity-loh in mob situation beyond compare (90+X). Honestly this much recovery is wasteful. Mage doesn't have the HP to fully take advantage of this recovery. Even if you "nerf" it to 10X from 90X, I still seriously doubt the current mage HP can take full advantage of it. That's a lot of wasted compute cycles to calculate those singularity LoHs. I'm not looking to bring mage down to SW level. I just think this is wrong in relation to what else are in the game.

My end game is actually trying to convince the Devs to LOWER the mob damage so that our HP pool becomes more than just a 1hko buffer. To do that, I just want to point out some weirdness in the current meta as related to singularity LoH.

[Arionthe]

How about a change in the mechanics.

• The PC either blocks, parries, or dodge, or else not.
• If blocks... then LoH (like damage absorb).
• If not. . then actions slowed.
• At all times Recovery rescaled to LoH. Trials don't give the luxury of idling time.

I can get behind that. Basically LoH becomes flat number damage reduction when Armor and such offers % reduction etc. Then recovery is made up of life regeneration, some Heal of Time skills (need more in that case for every class), and potion quaffing.

The key is make recovery controlled so it has no chance of overwhelming mob damage; thus reducing encounters to cake walks.

[Bounty]

Arionthe,

Another way to look at it and it seem to me that Warrior and Mage are balanced and BH is underpowered.

If you think about it, this game was originally developed for mobile. Not PC. If you take away PC players from the LB. You would have mobile:

Mage 119 TL
BH 115 (stalker)
Warrior 118

As far as i know, the highest mobile Assault is 105-108 ish. It's the entrance of PC platform that has altered the original landscape to the detriment of Warrior class. PC made Assault 6 the champion build for BH that was not possible before with mobile.

[PeterK]

How about a change in the mechanics.

• The PC either blocks, parries, or dodge, or else not.
• If blocks... then LoH (like damage absorb).
• If not. . then actions slowed.
• At all times Recovery rescaled to LoH. Trials don't give the luxury of idling time.

[Arionthe]

	Attacks/sec	W/Buffs	W/Skills	LoH	1 Mob Peak Recovery/sec	50mob Peak	Singularity 1 Mob	W/Bubble	Singularity 50 Mob	2X Singularity 50 Mob
Mage	7	10.5		1000	10500	10500	31000	62000	1581000	3131000
Warrior (DW)	7.5	11	15	1000	15000	15000
Warrior (SW)	6	8.5	16.5	1000	16500	16500		33000
BH	7.5	7.5	20	1000	20000	20000

The above are the rough estimates I have for end game recovery mechanic. Attacks/sec column assumes 3 archers, basically what you can find on your character screen out of combat. With Buff column assumes the maximum buff benefit from skills (Arc Lightning for mage, frenzy and battle rage for warrior, nothing for BH). With Skills column adds concurrent LoH triggering skills such as DT for warrior (4hits per sec for DW and 8hits per sec for SW, assuming two DTs are triggered, 2 RF spams within that 1 sec window for BH). Basically I'm giving BH and Warrior all the optimal conditions they can expect during that peak 1sec LoH trigger. Singularity is assumed to take the player's attack speed into account for the frequency of arcs hitting. W/Bubble refers to when the shield bubble is up. It effectively doubles the LoH during that period of time (confirmed in conversation with Red in the past).

There you have it, the peak recovery mechanic.
50 Mob is hardly the largest pull top end mages will pull. I suspect that number is closer to 100. But 50 Mob will do. The key is neither warrior nor BH's recovery mechanic scales with mob size. BH might be fine with that since the tactic is group to group fighting anyway. SW warrior however, isn't the case.

If 3.1million vs 33k does not look out of place, that's 94X difference, then I rest my case.

Remember my whole point is about how singularity recovery mechanic is out of proportion with anything else out there. The reason why Mage is still dying with this kind of recovery mechanic has everything to do with the HP pool and the mob damage (meaning HP is too low relative to mob damage in high trials). Just because the small HP pool is preventing the mage to fully realize the 3.1million recovery benefit does not mask the fact 3.1million is too much.

Btw 3.1million recovery is wholly unnecessary even at trial 130+. I'm sure even if that number is reduced to 300k/sec (still 10x better than the best the next class can muster), mage can survive.

Above numbers are just theorycraft, maybe Nhat can find a way to empirically test them. But for illustration purposes these should do.

[Bounty]

But now that they nerfed BH in the beta they need to nerf the mage also

I haven't done anything yet with the closed Beta. What was nerfed? Wllly said something about piercing being "off". Anything else. BH is my main hero......

[Suzy.Bae]

I disagree with your first statement that singularity recovery has no impact on other classes. The reason, as I stated earlier, is that we all have to fight the same mobs. When there is an OP recovery mechanism going on, in order to balance that (making encounters non trivial), mob attributes will need to adjust. For classes that lack the OP recovery mechanism, we are now fighting amped up mobs without the same suite of tool to deal with those "game balancing enhanced mob attributes".

1) Again nerfing mage isn't my intention, I'm simply pointing out a situation where I question if the current meta is the intended one. That's why I asked if Singularity is meant to perform this way with regard to LoH. Now the initial design might have called for precisely this interaction. Therefore it could be that the Dev's original intention is exactly this. However some edge cases might have been missed when designing this ability. For example Devs never imagined ppl can have multiple singularities on screen with enough AR and Alacrity. So what I'm really asking is that generating millions in raw HP recovery with a single skill invocation (I usually play with floaty numbers off, perhaps some high level mage can share a screen shot of what recovery numbers they are getting when actually pushing high trial with big mob pulls) is the intended situation.
2) Not sure how to respond to that.
3) Maximizing a skill with the proper use case is just par for any industrial player. I don't see anything wrong with it. Why use a mob skill on a single target?
4) No where did I say nerf singularity damage. If you are referring to the immolation triggering, I had already mentioned to buff immolation effect as compensation. In fact if they buff immolation as a trade off for capped singularity immolation trigger, mage players will actually gain in trial pushing. We all know the biggest obstacle is bossing. Wouldn't you want a 3.375x damage buff vs the current 1.2x (50% damage buff per immolate vs 30%) when bossing?
5) I refer you to my response to Jage post. You are confusing dying while singularity proc with evidence that singularity driven recovery isn't OP. It has more to do with your hp pool being insufficient to act as an buffer to allow that massive recovery keeping you immortal.

I'm not sure for Devs to give singularity level recovery to BH and W is the right approach. Clearly if that is the case, the Devs wouldn't have moved off life steal in the first place. I take that as evidence that they made the switch with one thing in mind, making the game challenging.

I'm just pointing out the mechanism imho is OP and feeds into the current meta where HP investment is irrelevant beyond 1hko buffer.

1) Mage in is in a good spot as it is right now and doesn't need the rebalancing feedback you're saying as it will only widen the gap between Arcanist and Apprentice users which Mages want to fix. You can't say Singularity LOH is OP when it won't save you from the main source of Mage deaths, one shots due to glass cannon builds. Asking if a skill that's working for how many months or years already, Singularity is working as intended is basically like asking if Warrior sucks exactly as how they intended it to be (just a joke here again but I'm sure you get the reference). I doubt the Devs and QA specialist has left it being this OP for the longest time without being aware that it can be casted multiple times with enough Alacrity procs. They're not fools, you see. Also, that millions of LOH you're referring to can't actually be used by Mage to tank. Cause, well, if you tank you die instantly and there's no way you're getting away with millions of LOH (your exaggerated heal numbers mentioned).

2.) You don't need to respond to that. You just need to say that you acknowledge it, because frankly, it's a fact in games. What game doesn't give a Mage ''nuke-like AOE and damages'' anyway and OP ways to recover, they're called mages for a reason and for that statement, the Warrior doesn't look so much as a warrior not because of it's build and setup but because of the lack of a set item to rely on.

3.) You are correct. Maximizing a skill is just a requirement for any actual strat to be effective. Why use a mob skill on a single target? Oh, well, played some Warrior and you can also use Shockwave to 5-10 camps, right? Why don't you use it there then? If you see my point that Mage requires a ton of mob/camps to actually make singularity viable during mob phase, then I'm happy. If not, I can object why Shockwave can be used nonstop to actually kill as little as a single camp to less than half a camp. Eg. If you spend time casting singularity on just 1-2 melee elites (well you still do since you have no other ways to deal more damage but it's not as effective as casting shockwave on the same targets and getting stronger benefits anyway), then usually you lose the time required to get a good summon for mage. However, for warrior, that's not the case, you just spam it as long as the rending slash stacks and DT are there to nuke kill them. At 50% CDR, Shockwave is basically like RF of BH, too.

4.) See first line in #1. It's just that, at least, the Mage class can rely on it's actual end-game skills and Warrior can't.

5.) I'm not confusing anything with something. The recovery acquired from Singularity doesn't make Mage immortal due to a SIMPLE FACT that Mage dies in one shot basically due to the required amount of mobs you group up and clear to get a decent-good boss spawn/summon. How can you call it OP when you can't even take advantage of it when you're dead? You have to accept a fact about Mages not being able to tank anything here unless with enough barrier stacks built up from attacking for quite some time.

I guess you're kind of the one that's confused here. It looks like deep in your heart, you think the LOH mechanic on singularity is OP so you want to nerf it/have it revamped/rebalanced instead of actually realizing that what you need to focus on giving feedback and suggestion is for your class, the Warrior. Your post has nothing to do with what you want. It's the same thing. You just want to change stuff to somehow make it still go back to it's current benchmark (but with more problems, eg Arcanist vs Apprentice gap widens).

In fact, if you remove Singularity LOH, apples work the same. With a few adjustment to gameplay (dodging consistently), Mage can work through it. So what now about the Warrior?

P.S. It's not that you're sure that the Devs give that recovery to Singularity but more like you reject the fact that it is a thing for a Mage and not for a Warrior (I might be mistaken here).

Again, Singularity LOH isn't OP for the sole purpose that what's killing a mage isn't tanked damage but nuke damage (or treated as a nuke, like volley of arrows, an elite melee attack, summoner elite attack, 2-3 melee normal skeletons hit).

I think Singularity damage basically just acts like an apple in the first place. Also, HP investment being irrelevant? No. Sorry but I find it stupid. Why are you comparing a melee class that's supposed to TANK with a decent LOH mechanic to a ranged caster class that's not supposed to TANK with an OP mechanic? Could you be wanting to get some sort of skill like that for Warrior? (not happening).

I think the better topic/suggestion/feedback here is for the Devs to give back some lost mechanic/strength back to Shockwave or better yet give a the Warrior sets a good synergy with skills to propel them to the trial ceiling of BH and Mage. Back then, it heals like 5% per mob hit if I'm not mistaken and it became a life recovery % instead (as they think it's OP, perhaps).

Back then, I heard Led saying Mage has lost a lot of it's power after being nerfed and was adjusted to what it is now which isn't OP at all for me, coming from a BH main. While Warrior has yet to get some good buffs due to the fact that's it's trickier to buff it than others as a certain incorrect tweak might get it either too OP or underpowered like what it is now.

Edit: I just realized the reason why you're having such thoughts is because the strengths of each class aren't really highlighted enough here. BH is good vs single targets (dealing damage), Mage is good vs mobs (mob clearing), Warrior is good at tanking or getting aggro and displacement (frontliners). If we get through a point in time in Eternium where each class can be glorified for their role in a party, then you won't bother having comparisons like this. At least, that's what I think.

But now that they nerfed BH in the beta they need to nerf the mage also

What's all about these nerfs? You can only suggest a nerf if something is incredibly so powerful that there's no question about its mechanics, skills, or anything. In light of Arionthe's post, he's referring to LOH mechanic but spearheaded the attack to give a nerf to Mage. I've always thought about having BH revive companions is op and even as a BH main I don't mind losing them if they continue to implement such changes after beta. On another note, what should compliment and reinforce BH is the addition of the skills that it's lacking to actually compete without nonstop companions being active.

[Oldmobilenewbie]

But now that they nerfed BH in the beta they need to nerf the mage also

Say it ain't so!

[Humus]

Arionthe,

I am inclined to agree with you, but what you are asking will considerably weaken Mage. Then you would have BH as king of the classes. As you can see by the LB, mage and BH and both stuck at 122 TL. Which tells me that the Devs did a hell of a job balancing mage and BH. So if you weaken mage, then you must also weaken BH. Why cause two fixes when are you have to do is fix one....buff up warrior.

But now that they nerfed BH in the beta they need to nerf the mage also