How to address the PC/Mobile movement gap

[Arionthe]

Skill spamming and precise movements are the two biggest advantages PC enjoys over mobile. Skill spamming can be addressed to a large degree with some limited automation (autocast). See my other posts for that. The precise movement control is a far more intractable problem and becomes even more dominant as an issue at the very top of the LB. Evidence is in the very low toughness and/or recovery numbers that PC players can sport while attempting (much) higher TLs.

There is really only one realistic way to address this gap. Decrease the efficacy of precise movement control for gameplay purposes. By this I don't mean introduce random movements so that you move/point your character one way and she/he goes another. Rather compute the hitbox based on where the character has been during each "tick". Currently PC players can side step an incoming arrow and lose minimum time and get right back to doing DPS. The suggestion is effectively "enlarging" the hitbox a character has during the tick that the player makes micro movements thus side stepping incoming attack becomes moot. How much enlargement that is needed for balance reasons, I leave it for the Devs. But this is a fundamental solution to address this precise movement advantage PC has over mobile. Since it's been confirmed multiple times that there will NOT be a separate LB for PC and mobile, I think greater efforts should be looked at to narrow the platform differences.

Before PC players cry that this takes "skill" out of their gameplay, my only retort is that the game mechanics weren't designed for player characters to tap dance their way to avoiding 90+% damage. You might as well give mobile players 75% additional damage reduction to compensate... oh wait it can't be done since the game can't reliably detect who is truly mobile.

When certain platform advantage (in the hands of the right players of course) turns difficult into annoyance, one could argue that it is the PC that broke the game.

For consideration of the Devs...

[lama75]

I understand where you're coming from with this idea.

I'm not sure what a "micro movement" is, much less how the game would determine that one had occurred. Having watched PC players like tater, I think it's less micro movement and more precision timing and movement. With PC, movement is ALWAYS a click away and can be anticipated because of effective 2-handed game play. This circumstance is something that just can't happen on mobile. If I'm about to send a singularity, then I am unable to move for that moment and if I've lost the timing, then I'm done.

So I'm not sure the idea of a micro movement works here, for one. Worse, even if it did what happens when a mobile player manages to create a movement that triggers the detection? Now a mobile player unwittingly has nerfed themself.

[Dyoma]

Hey, I identified the problem of a PC / mobile 2 years ago. What are we talking about?

[Cultusfit]

Buy everyone a PC?

[Arionthe]

lama75 , let me try to expand this a bit to illustrate my meanings and motivations.

There are two aspects to the PC movement advantage. My initial idea (looking back, poorly explained) looks to address the defensive side. There is also the DPS/offensive side of PC movement advantage, which I will address later.

Defensive PC movement advantage: I define this as the ability to move dodge 90+% of incoming damage. Now this is more obvious in the case of ranged attack classes such as mage/bh. But it holds true to a degree to warrior as well. Mob damage is done via three broad channels, melee, ranged (arrows/fireballs), and skill damage (AOE attacks, charges, multishots etc). In all instances, PC have a significant reaction time advantage. Due to this reaction advantage, and the precise movement on command nature of PC play, (I will use mage here to illustrate since that is probably the most obvious class here), the player can wait, still doing damage, until finally blink/move away at the last moment to avoid that incoming damage. The mob swings (melee), and arrows (ranged) travel rather slowly, giving player that time to react and avoid the damage. Why Havoc set missile or Bombardment enchantment turns out less effective than RotS? The exact same reason, slow missile travel time that often leading to hitting the enemy where they used to be, not where they are. So much of the incoming damage can be move dodged (no relation to dodge stat), thus leading to PC players needing far less toughness... but even more dramatic, recovery. Hence stat budget can be devoted to offensive stats. Mage's bubble presents its own issues in terms of recovery but that was covered by another post from me (see mage's tanking prowess post).

So how to address this? Realistically two ways. One DRAMATICALLY increase mob attack speed (melee) to close to what players are capable of. Even more necessary, DRAMATICALLY increase mob ranged attack travel speed to shorten reaction time. So those arrows are more like real life arrows, no one is dodging them from 20 feet away. Basically once the arrow is let go, the player should be taking damage (actual dodge/block/parry skills aside of course).

Somehow I don't think the playerbase will go for this solution.

So what I proposed was this: decrease the move dodge effectiveness so that PC movement's defensive advantage is close to muted. In order to do so while NOT increasing the mob ranged/melee travel speed basically means needing to change the way game handles what "being hit" means. The universal way to address it is enlarging the player hitbox as a function of its movement during a tick (I'm assuming all damage get resolved on a tick by tick basis). So If the player standing still during the tick, the hitbox is normal size. However if the player moves during the tick, just expand the hitbox accordingly. Consider the scenario of running in the rain. Do you get more wet if you run through the rain vs standing in the rain on a per time block basis. This adjustment to hitbox based on movement/distance in a tick is an universal solution that mimics the effect of not able to move dodge incoming attacks. Lest people complaint about "I obviously dodged that arrow, why am I still taking damage!", those arrows are merely graphical representations of incoming mob damage. You aren't suppose to be able to dodge arrows fired in point blank range. If you were, why do we have a dodge stat in the game at all.


Now onto the offensive side of PC movement advantage.
One part of that was already alluded to in the above discourse. The ability to stand pat and dish dps until the very last moment. More time for DPS equals more DPS. Also less stat devoted for defense means more stat to offense. Ok so two parts already covered. The third advantage is the ability to do DPS while on the move. On mobile, when one taps in an area, the character stops shooting/casting/normal attack and run towards that new area. If the area is a mob target, the character will stop once it is in range to resume attack. If the area is empty, the character arrives at the area and then start attacking the nearest mob. So during the travel, no DPS was done. I was told PC doesn't suffer from this lack of DPS during travel. Let's assume that is true (no pc experience here), the solution here is for the game to plot out the path from point A to point B, automatically switch targets along the way that is WITHIN range of the selected normal attack and automatically attack them along the way. Some might say that's a small advantage. Not true, not when alacrity is being triggered, LoH being triggered, the attack based procs being triggered. So anytime when the player can keep doing normal attack, it is helpful in some fashion. It's almost immaterial what the player is attacking at, just the normal attacks need to keep triggering during the travel/reposition time.

With these two adjustments, I think the PC movement advantage can be dramatically narrowed. Let me know if any of the points/examples here are still unclear.

[Leyline]

On the PC you do not continue to cast once you click to walk, it's the same as mobile.

[Buppy]

Not everything needs to be equal. The PC/mobile gap does not need to be addressed at all. Certainly not by nerfing PC play.

Otherwise, I'm curious to hear your proposal that would allow someone to put their PC in in their pocket so they could play away from home.

[Arionthe]

On the PC you do not continue to cast once you click to walk, it's the same as mobile.

I don't have PC experience that part was simply my conjecture upon hearing how PC assault can still do DPS while moving etc. However the case maybe, I actually think this auto target/attack while on the move is a great addition to both PC and mobile play. Just for that reason, devs can perhaps look into implementing this feature.

[Arionthe]

Not everything needs to be equal. The PC/mobile gap does not need to be addressed at all. Certainly not by nerfing PC play.

Otherwise, I'm curious to hear your proposal that would allow someone to put their PC in in their pocket so they could play away from home.

I'm ok with never addressing this gap as long as I (and other mobile onlys) get 1-2 extra Cbox per ANB. In terms of effort/gem spent, I should have been top 10 at least twice and top 25 rest of the time for sure. But being mobile practically making that impossible. The gap has significant top end reward ramifications(cbox).. that's why as long as there is no separate LB, voices will be raised about narrowing the PC/mobile gap. I'm simply offering universal solutions to do just that.

Let's not simply seeing the suggestion through the lens of nerfing pc play. The truth of the matter is, PC is breaking a mobile game. The challenges and difficulties are modulated with mobile limitations in mind. PC comes along and walk all over since the challenges are rendered moot (move dodging most of the incoming dmg, skill spam etc). Would you feel the same if arrow speeds are increased so that PC can't dodge them either anymore? Like I said, I didn't think anyone would go for the OTHER solution of ramping up mob damage speeds. Think about the howls of protests we have already had with the little bit more mob attack/aggro adjustments we have seen since hometown.

[Bounty]

Not everything needs to be equal. The PC/mobile gap does not need to be addressed at all. Certainly not by nerfing PC play.

Otherwise, I'm curious to hear your proposal that would allow someone to put their PC in in their pocket so they could play away from home.

No. When there is a competition involved with rare items as rewards....it needs to be equal.

Would you bother to put in the time and effort in a competition if you knew going in you can never get top 10 or even top 25?

Many mobile players don't even bother to participate or just don't bother to put the time in for an event. This is not good for a game that was made for mobile in the first place.

Since Devs continually say that they cannot do a separate leaderboard....then nerfing PC or make things easier for mobile is the only solution.

[BalthasarHohenheim]

So maybe I'm just dumb and the answere is obvious, but can someone explain to me why they leaderboards cannot be seperated?


As far as I can tell the game already differentiates between PC and mobile. It tells me at each startup when and from which device I logged in last time. In addition the fact that I can aim skills like snipe and shockwave with the position of my mousetip rather than where my character is facing at skillactivation (another huge advantage of PC that wasn't mentioned yet) and the fact that it automatically switches between gesture and buttom mode shows that it tracks the input-devices.

So the best way would be to create two leaderboards at the beginning of the event and then check for each trialcompletion if the current device is an PC or mobile one. Alternatively you can just assume the device to be mobile at the start and flag it as PC if a mouse and/ or buttoms were used as using a PC with touch input is fundamentally the same as using a mobile device.
Then just add the PC results to the PC leaderboard an the rest to the mobile one.

After the event the leaderboards are checked as usual (they need to be manually checked for cheaters anyway) and the prices are awarded beginning from the top. Whenever an account is awarded a price from one leaderboard it is removed from the other. This way everyone will be rewarded for his/ her best result. If a person has the same ranking on both the PC one is prioritized. That way there will be one more mobile player on the leaderboard as getting a high trial there is harder.

I guess the drawbacks of this method would be the implementation of how to view the correct leaderboard (either dispay the one matching the current device or add a second button to the Trial tab), the fact that two instead of one best trial would need to be stored per account and the fact, that the workload of manually checking the leaderboards after the event would be doubled (although for the next few events that might be cheaper than balancing PC and mobile developmenttimewise).


I hope that what I wrote wasn't utter nonsense as my entire "programming"-experience consists of a few MatLab exercises in University. I know that seemingly easy things can turn out to be unexpectedly hard to implement (like accidentally freezing my PC during a picture rotation by creating a daterbase that was 10 times as big as my RAM^^), so I'm honestly interested where the fundamental problem is.

[Buppy]

So maybe I'm just dumb and the answere is obvious, but can someone explain to me why they leaderboards cannot be seperated?....

I don't know for sure, but if I had to guess I would say the ability to play on multiple platforms would confuse things. For example: How would one quantify the advantage of grinding up on PC then switching to mobile for trial pushing? Then you also have emulators to consider.

But also that just highlights the primary reason why it isn't necessary. No one is forced to choose between PC and mobile. The only thing stopping these people from playing on PC during ANB is themselves. What's being asked for is no different than the guy asking for a playtime-limited version of ANB because he didn't have enough free time in a week to compete.

No. When there is a competition involved with rare items as rewards....it needs to be equal.

Would you bother to put in the time and effort in a competition if you knew going in you can never get top 10 or even top 25?....

I've played all four ANBs, and haven't even come close to top 100. I don't have the time or the motivation. Never uttered a complaint nor asked for any changes to better suit my personal limitations and choices.

There is no competition between platforms. You have the ability to play on a PC if you want. If you won't, that is your choice, and you should accept the consequences.

I'm ok with never addressing this gap as long as I (and other mobile onlys) get 1-2 extra Cbox per ANB. ....

There's no such thing as "mobile onlys". Again, that is a choice. You are choosing to use an inferior tool, then complaining that other people are using the better one. It's like going to a tomato slicing competition armed with a spoon, then when you lose, arguing that knives should be made dull and useless to make things fair for spoon guys.

There are many ways players are unequal, particularly in a short-duration event like ANB. Choice of platform is one. Free time, game experience, gem/money availability, dexterity, attention span...not to mention the myriad stat build and skill use options.

I repeat, not everything needs to be equal. The very idea of competition relies on the existence of some kind of inequality. Which ones we deem acceptable is open to debate, but I'd say a good rule of thumb would be anything that is both completely optional and would require lowering the effectiveness/ability of others should be one you let go.

Separate leaderboards, if they want to do that, is fine. But not nerfing PCs or making special mobile skills.

[Nhat]

So maybe I'm just dumb and the answere is obvious, but can someone explain to me why they leaderboards cannot be seperated?

Only the development team can truly answer this question, since only they know the structure of the code and limitation therein.

Previous discussions point towards the inability to accurately tell the difference between physical device and emulated Android/iOS (if there's such thing) on PC. Which means that emulated Android will still count as Android - so there's still "unfairness" issues there...

[lama75]

Buppy -
I pretty much disagree with the entire thrust of your comment, even though there is a logic to it. For one, there most certainly are "mobile onlys". For some it is our choice but for others it is not - they don't have access or resources for a PC.

For another, the notion that things are unequal in a competition is true to some degree. This attitude glosses over the fact that these differences should be due to skill and strategic choices, not the platform. Yes, there are skill differences between PC players as well, but the skill set between PC and mobile is entirely different.

The fact that you don't care about your ANB results has no bearing on what other players attitude will be. And they are perfectly within their right to note they are effectively locked out of rewards in a competition IN A MOBILE game.

Finally, competition most decidedly does NOT rely on inequity. The requirement for competition is simple: a minimum of 2 people to say "I'm better than you and I'm going to prove it." That's the essence of competition. But in order to prove it, you have to establish an arena that provides the same ground conditions. That's the challenge posed by PC vs mobile.

As it happens, I agree that PC players could not be penalized for their choice. It's just unfortunate that their choice grants them an insurmountable buff versus other players.

[lama75]

Arionthe -
I understood your idea. I just don't think it will address the problem. I think you're trying to convince yourself that the PC experience can be finessed high to make or similar to the mobile experience. Mobile players are perfectly capable of dodging arrows and incoming ranged fire. What we're NOT capable of is the precise movement and attacking possibilities that PC is capable of. These differences are easy to see, rather than explain, unfortunately. Nekromant posted some video of himself beating kara with a mage in story mode without having first beaten any of hey acolytes (this was Coda's challenge I think). He was able to move in a constant, repeatable pattern around kara, dodging her fire the entire time and keeping her minions at bay as well. Watching it, I realized it was simply not possible for a mobile player to duplicate the playstyle. Finger touches on the screen are only so accurate and coordinating the movement with attacking and skill deployment all with 1 finger make it an impossible task.

Increasing the hitbox size would only have the effect of nerfing everyone's gameplay, imo. While still maintaining the PC player's inherent advantages.

ADDED:
I think the big difference between PC and mobile boils down to a simple, a defensible, design decision for the PC version of the game : mapping skills to keys. If a PC player had to draw the same runes that mobile players do, i think game results would be much closer. I still think PC has the movement advantage and it would still be an advantage when switching between primary and secondary attacks since that's just a mouse button press, but the gap would be significantly smaller.