Jugg 2 bonus could use some rework

[Arionthe]

Jugg 2 bonus of 500 CR when using frenzy is underpowered when compared to warlord 2's bonus of free BR. BR is 1000 haste plus 20% damage boost at level 10. 20% damage boost is roughly worth 700-800 power at around CL 2k. So warlord 2 bonus is roughly equal to 1700-1800 of offensive stats. Power stat has no diminishing return and haste boost still stops well before the extreme end of diminishing return (800 base haste seems to be what ppl are going for, so 1800 haste with BR is well before heavy diminishing return part of the attack speed curve). On the other hand, no self respecting warrior will have anything less than full CR everywhere. Which means that Jugg2 CR bonus lies on the extreme end of the diminishing curve.

Take myself for example, I have a base CR of 3400 (yes I know, I'm on the extreme extreme side of things).

So the base CR gives me a crit % of 53.3%
With charge 2000 CR, now I'm at 64.286%

With the Jugg2 bonus, I will have 3900 CR, adding in charge's 2000 CR, results in a 66.292% crit rate.

That's roughly 2% higher crit rate. Far less effective than 20% damage boost, not to mention the 1000 haste and blazing running speed towards an enemy.


Suggestion:
Juggernaut is about hitting hard and crit for massive damage. This seems to be the theme looking at the Jugg4 and Jugg6 bonuses. In keeping with this theme, what about the following:

Juggernaut 2 bonus: Frenzy increases your critical rating by 100, Frenzy damage by 20%, Critical Damage by 20% for 15 seconds. This effect stacks up to 500 critical rating, 100% frenzy damage, 100% Critical Damage.

Basically an extra 100% CD and doubles frenzy damage in addition to the CR.

In an earlier analysis (WW vs Devastate), I showed that frenzy / cleave dps output ratio is only 2. Meaning if cleaving 2+mobs, cleave actually outputs higher total damage than frenzy. I always though that single target dps should have a 3-4 ratio compared to mobbing skills/attacks. With this change, Frenzy/cleave ratio becomes 4. Also makes frenzy a truly frightening attack when combine with the Cleaver set axe (butchery effect of 13x normal attack damage).

The extra 100% CD is roughly 6.25% more CD than the currently endgame base CD of 1600%. Makes the hits hurt just a little more seems pretty compatible to what Juggernaut is supposed to be. Frenzy damage seems to be 1-2% of endgame damage at the moment. So a doubling won't really move the needle; thus not overpowered.

But the extra 100% CD will benefit all other attacks, making Jugg set more universally appealing for various skill combos out there.

[Oldandslow]

I love my full Jug / WW warrior for gold and gem farming. It would be great to get a buff to make the set more single target friendly, yes it's an aoe build but boss damage is sad in all honesty and a no go for high trials

[Arionthe]

I just started pushing DW bleed two days ago. Finally got some personal experience with WW near peak trials. So I'm amending the jugg set suggestion in this and previous threads to reflect actual gameplay experience.

Jugg 2 bonus: 500 CR is clearly lacking as the OP in this thread explained. I see three possible options and any one of them will be a significant improvement to the current bonus.

option 1: Frenzy increases your critical chance by 1% for 15 seconds. This effect stacks up to 5%

option 2: Frenzy increases your Power by 100, and Critical Damage by 20%. This effect stacks up to 500 Power and 100% CD

option 3: Frenzy increases your Haste by 100 and Critical Damage by 20%. This effect stacks up to 500 Haste and 100% CD

1% CD is worth roughly 4 power at CL2k+. So 500 Power/haste + 400 Power equivalent of CD makes this Jugg 2 bonus equivalent of 900 offensive stats. Far better than the extremely diminishing return hitting 500 CR at endgame since Power has no diminishing return and Haste doesn't get stacked high enough usually to hit those extremes. Recall in the OP, a Free BR is worth roughly 1700-1800 offensive stats in the same haste/power category.

option 1 is quite powerful at endgame, thus there is no additional CD buff.


Jugg 4 bonus: Juggernaut set is a set without an identity. Warlord set has clearly established itself as the goto set for DW bleed build. The innocently worded wl6 bonus (100% dmg when target hp falls below 35%) has such a strong synergy with how bleed works, the buff in practice is actually around 35-40% DPS. This was confirmed by the top two warrior players on the LB, NeoSamurai and Cereblon . The reason for this is double critical damage leads to 4x grevious wounds which leads to 8x shockwave. So if Juggernaut set can't compete with warlord for DW bleed love, it needs to be good at something else. The bladestorm weapon set is designed for direct damage. The main buff is triggered by ww.

So, DW bleed has their warlord set and their signature skill: shockwave, Juggernaut should aim to be DW direct damage set with WW being their signature skill. Thus the old buff of 30% dmg buff to both WW and Shockwave made no sense to me. It's like Juggernaut trying to be two things at once and failing to be either.

I see the bonus to be entirely focused on WW as this is the signature skill for DW direct damage.

Suggestion: Flurry buff affects Whirlwind and targets hit deal 45% less damage per equipped weapon for 3 seconds. (normal WW is 15% less damage per equipped weapon)

In an earlier thread WW vs Devastate I had explained how WW is woefully underpowered compared to devastate even in the mobbing situation (needs 17 targets to just equate Devastate total damage output), so the first part of the bonus, letting flurry affect WW fixes the damage part. This improves the ratio from 17 to 6ish. Making WW the unquestioned mobbing skill.

The second part is borne out of my personal gaming experience of trying to use WW near peak trials (145+). In short it kills you fast while doing practically nothing to mobs. I have over 200k raw HP and it kills me every time when I pulled more than 3 mobs together. The unique vacuuming feature makes this skill an absolute death trap: you can't even get away from the mobs. 30% damage reduction is simply not enough. This skill being a mobbing skill actually needs MORE damage reduction than devastate's 75%. I think 90% is the right amount. Don't laugh it is actually true. One person has made WW work at 150 by using a full defender build. DW doesn't have that luxury.

So this bonus makes the signature skill WW the true mobbing king as it should be.

Now that one can survive while WW, it is no longer necessary to correct the one glaring weakness of WW, lack of alacrity during its animation. The 3 second reduced damage after WW is finished buys the player time to do other things. My understanding is that to make WW trigger alacrity will require a refactoring of the skill itself (sounds like a lot more work). So this suggestion avoids that work for the developers.

Jugg 6 bonus: I also never understood why devastate is the skill being buffed for juggernaut. Clearly devastate is a skill used by the DW bleed to feed the shockwave. Devastate replaces normal attack during its animation. Cleaver's massive buff to normal attack is wasted when there is no normal attack being performed. There is simply no clear synergy here with devastate and DW butchery empowered direct damage.

Suggestion: Casting Whirlwind grants you 1400 Power for 15 seconds.

Clearly whirlwind should be the signature skill for DW direct damage. Butchery lasts 10secs after WW finishes. So WW granting 1400 power for 15 seconds nicely coincide both buff timers.

Shield warriors have their shield block, DW bleed has shockwave, DW direct damage should claim its own signature skill. Given that bladestorm axes clearly focuses on WW, it's natural to make WW the signature skill. With bladestorm bonuses further enhances the WW's single target dps and sustain, Juggernaut and the axe set makes for a perfect match.

Presented here for everyone's consideration.

Also Red (Developer) Adrian (Developer)