To make Eternium eternal, Medal shoud be applied only for Season, not for ANB

[김기현]

게임뿐만 아니라, 모든 집단은 본질적으로 뉴비가 지속적으로 유입이 되어야 생존이 가능하다. 그런데 메달은 현재 이터니움을 지속적으로 플레이하는 구성원 중에서도 상위 그룹에게만 지속 유인을 제공하고 있다. 이런 부익부 빈익빈 구조는 새로 진입하는 이들에게서 '기회'를 박탈함으로써, 메달이 누적될수록 진입장벽을 점점 더 높여서 뉴비의 유입을 막는다. 이러면 이터니움은 현재 적극적으로 플레이하는 유저들에게서만 금전적, 시간적 자원을 빨아들이고, 그것이 다 고갈되고 나면 이터니움은 쇠락의 길로 가게 된다.

게임이 장수하려면, '시작할 때마다 완전히 새로 시작하여, 오직 플레이어의 기술과 능력으로만 승부할 수' 있어야 한다. 그래서 뉴비에게도 어느 정도 기회를 주어야 한다. 거기에서 드라마가 나오고, 생명력이 올라간다.

열심히 메달을 딴 이상 어딘가는 써먹을 수 있어야 도전의 동기가 생기므로, 시즌에는 적용하는 것이 좋을 것 같다. 하지만 명색이 ANB인데, 시작할 때부터 누군가는 이미 레벨 30,40 이상의 효과를 메달로 누리고 있으면 그것은 뉴비 양민학살밖에 되지 않는다. 심지어 성장 속도(경험치 증가 속도)마저 다르다. 그것은 ANB가 아니라 헤비급과 플라이급을 한데 붙여놓고 싸우라는 것이며, 그 체급 차이는 노력으로 극복할 수도 없고, 심지어 점점 더 벌어진다. 그러면 새로운 유저는 들어오지 않는다.

그래서, 메달은 시즌에만 적용해야 한다.



In addition to games, all groups can survive essentially only when newbies continue to flow in. However, the medal currently provides continuous incentives only to the top group among the members who continue to play Eternium. This structure of the rich and the poor deprives the new entrants of "opportunities," increasing entry barriers as medals accumulate, preventing the influx of newbies. In this case, Eternium absorbs financial and time resources only from users who currently play actively, and when it is exhausted, Eternium will go down the path of decline.

For a game to live a long life, it must 'start completely new every time it starts, and be able to compete only with the skills and abilities of the player'. So Newby should be given some opportunity as well. That's where the drama comes out, and the vitality goes up.

As long as you win a medal hard, you have to be able to use it somewhere to have a motivation to challenge, so it would be better to apply it in the season. However, the name is ANB, and if someone already enjoys a medal above level 30, 40, from the start, it will be nothing but a Newbie massacre. Even the rate of growth (the rate of increase in experience) is different. It's not ANB, it's to fight the heavyweight and flyweights together, and the weight gap cannot be overcome by effort, even widening even more. Then no new users come in.

So, medals should only be applied for the season.

[김기현]

시즌의 경우, 메달 시스템이 좋은 이유는 두 가지이다.

1. 메달이 있으면 유리하지만, 메달이 없는 뉴비 또는 중급자도 노력으로 레벨과 스킬을 올려서 커버할 수 있다.

2. 레벨을 아무리 올려도 노력으로 더 이상 획득할 수 없는 속성들, 즉 '힘' 외의 다른 속성들을 추가로 더 올릴 수 있다는 점에서 메달은 필요해 보인다.

그러나 이것을 ANB에 적용해 버리면, 뉴비는 새로 시작할 의욕 자체를 잃고 유입되지 않는다.


For the season, there are two reasons why the medal system is good.

1. Medals are advantageous, but even newbies or intermediates without medals can raise their levels and skills with effort to cover them.

2. Medals seem necessary in that you can further raise the attributes that you can no longer acquire with effort, that is, other than 'power'.

However, if you apply this to ANB, Newbie loses its motivation to start ANB and does not flow in.

[WarriorSeven]

Sorry, I for one think you have the reasoning backwards. Having medals for a new ANB toon IS an incentive to play in the ANB's.

Medals do and can help during the INITIAL game start for a brand new ANB hero that has little ability to contribute to damage, toughness, and recovery from hits -- the initial gear available is low level and poor quality. So, for THAT reason, especially if you regularly compete in the ANB's, having lots of medals at the start of a new ANB game with a new hero will HELP help your ANB toon progress a bit faster, at least initially. However, this effect diminishes quickly as your progress the game levels, though, and then you are forced to develop good, effective gear for your champion.

It has been proven time and time again that medals, in general, do little to increase your regular or permanant hero's attribute levels during normal gameplay (5-starring, season, etc.). The contribution by a medal's attributes are simply swamped by the MUCH larger effects of Champion Level plus high level gear (L77) attributes.

Personally, I view medals as providing a useful boost (crutch?) for a new toon to get off the ground running more quickly during each ANB. Otherwise, they simply accumulate by the experienced player for the game's so-called honor and glory (and boasting).

[김기현]

메달을 수십 개 '이미 가지고 있으면' 워리어세븐님 말대로, ANB에서 도움이 됩니다. 그런데 그 메달을 뉴비가 어떻게 따냐고요...100미터 달리기에서 고인물들은 이미 (메달 효과로) 10미터 앞에서 출발하고, 심지어 달리는 속도(경험치)도 메달 효과로 플러스 보정을 받는데, 뉴비가 무슨 수로 메달을 땁니까? 뉴비가 파란색 메달, 하늘색 메달 한두 개 획득할 때, 상위권은 빨강 노랑, 초록, 보라, 하늘, 파랑 메달을 싹쓸이하면서 훨씬 더 가속도 붙어서 달려가는데? 지난 ANB들에서 상위권 멤버가 사실상 고정멤버인 것이 기록으로 다 나와 있는데, 그걸 외면하고 뉴비에게 '열심히 하면 너도 할 수 있어!' 라고 말만 한다면, 그건 기만이고, 그 기만에 속을 뉴비도 없습니다. 이미 페이스북, 인스타그램을 가진 저커버그가 '야 나도 바닥에서 시작했어! 너두 열심히 하면 나를 이길 수 있어!' 라고 말하면 제가 믿겠습니까? 이미 굳어진 분야에서 온갖 버프를 이미 받고 있는 선두주자와 경쟁하느니, 다른 초기 신생분야를 찾아서 가겠죠.

As you(WarriorSeven) said, dozens of medals are helpful at ANB. But how does Newbie get those medals? In the 100-meter dash, existing participants already starts 10 meters ahead(by medal effect), and even the speed of running (the rate at which experience is gained) is adjusted (by medal effect), so how does Newbie win a medal? When Newbie wins one or two (blue or sky blue) medals, the top ranks run much faster, sweeping red, yellow, green, purple, sky blue, and blue medals. In the past ANBs, the record shows that the top members are actually fixed, and if you turn a blind eye to it and just say to Newbie, "You can do it if you work hard!" it's deceitful, and there's no Newbie to fall for it. Would I believe it if Zuckerberg, who already has Facebook and Instagram, said, "Hey, I started on the floor, too! You also can bite me if you work hard'? Rather than competing with a leader who's already getting all kinds of buffs in a field that's already solidified, Newbie's going to find another early new field.

I'd be more than happy to see a new ANB style event with no medals carried to the event character. If there remained the same split between the 3 leagues I doubt there would be any difference in the leaderboard in the Veterans league - I know I can farm just as many Champion Levels and then push just as far with a no medal character as I can with a highly decorated character in ANB.

I think the problem the OP is referring to relates to the lower leagues where people are deliberately sticking around to amass medals and not progress beyond TL119. In those cases a large hoard of power stacking medals might be more of an issue since it becomes a race to clear TL119 as fast as possible.

[WarriorSeven]

There are plenty of opportunities to win medals for the new player. First off, the game is designed with 3 competitive levels:

1) Contenders League, where all players competing and ALL their toons are at Trial Level 79 or lower;
2) Veterans League, where all players competing and ALL their toons are at Trial Level 119 or lower, and finally,
3) Masters League, where all players competing and ANY of their toons are at Trial Level 120 and above.

For a new a player starting out, you play the game, develop your Toon's gear, and compete in Trials for the best times within the League limits above. All "newbies" start in Contender League where you will compete with other Eternium players in that level for the best Trial complete times in order to win a medal. It's that simple. As long as you stay below Trial Level 80, and have the best (or one of the best) complete times, you'll win a medal. To successfully compete, you must have some decent knowledge of gameplay, the best gear you can equip your toon with, and interacting with all the games particulars and enemies.

As you become more experienced (or bored) with that League, you can advance to the next level Veterans League where you'll be competing with more experienced players who are at Trial Level 119 or lower -- again, the level applies to all your toons you use or have in reserve.

Finally, when you're more experienced or bored with Veterans League, you can advance to the Masters League at Trial Level 120 and beyond, where you'll compete with the best players on Eternium.

So, the game affords a new player MANY opportunities to win medals in the lower leagues, as long as you stay within the Trial Level limits stated above -- and COMPETE for the best Trial times. By staying in the lower leagues, you can spend as much time as you like their to learn about the game, gear, story mode, daily quests, acquiring recipes for new gear, trying a different champion, how to right the bosses and their minions, etc., etc., etc. -- that is, learn everything about the game you can.

Once you feel more comfortable in the competition aspect of the game, you may want to try your hand competing against more experienced players. Therefore, the game allows you to progress at your own pace -- and still win medals even if you are a newbie!

[jcochran]

Might want to rephrase #3 to
3) Masters League, where all players competing and ANY their toons are at Trial Level 120 and above.

And frankly, that part of ANY is something that I think should be changed. Reason is that there's a significant difference in skill sets between leveling ANB characters to clear TL120 and clearing TL120 with a permanent character that can have a far higher CL simply because it has accumulated XP over a much longer time span.

[WarriorSeven]

Yes, thanks jcochran, much better!

[김기현]

1. 오로지 메달을 획득하기 위해서 130층, 140층도 충분히 깰 실력의 플레이어들이 79층에서, 119층에서 타임어택하고 있는 게 과연 게임 구조상 바람직한가 하는 의문이 있습니다. 애초에 메달을 획득하려는 이유가 '더 강해져서, 더 높은 층으로 올라가기 위해서'라면, '메달을 따려면 올라가지 말고 계속 아래에서 골목대장하고 있어라'라는 것은 본말전도입니다.

2. 79층과 119층에서 부익부 빈익빈은 여전히 그대로입니다. ANB 마스터 리그에서 메달이 많은 사람이 더 높이 올라갈 수 있는 것처럼, ANB 컨텐더 리그와 ANB 베테랑 리그에서도 메달이 많은 사람이 같은 시간에 상대적으로 더 강해져서 79층, 119층을 '더 짧은 시간에' 깨고 높은 순위가 되어 또 메달을 획득하겠죠. 마스터 리그가 아니라고 해서 기회가 있다는 것은 환상입니다. 거기에서도 역시, 메달을 더 많이 가진 플레이어가 새로운 ANB의 메달도 가져갈 가능성이 매우 높습니다. 그 사람이 마스터 리그로 올라가면 이제 그 사람은 마스터 리그의 유리천장에 부딪히는 거고, 그 사람이 올라가지 않고 버티면서 계속 메달 수집하면, 그 뒤에 들어온 뉴비가 유리천장에 부딪히는 겁니다.

3. 한 번 상위 리그에 진입하고 나면, 이제 다시 하위 리그로 돌아갈 수 없습니다. 그러면 마스터 리그에서의 부익부 빈익빈은 여전히 존재하죠. 오늘(2023년 3월 7일) 마스터리그 새로 진입하는 사람이 시즌이 아닌 ANB에서 실력으로 현재의 마스터리그 랭커들을 제치고 위로 올라갈 수 있는 가능성이 있다고 보십니까? 저는 그렇게 생각하지 않습니다. 신규 가입자들은 이터니움에 그냥 그저그런 등수로 존재하려고 가입하는 게 아닙니다. (실제로는 모두가 하이랭커가 될 수는 없지만 적어도) 하이랭커로 가는 사다리를 치워 버려서는 안 됩니다. 그러면 잠재적 신규 가입자들 중 상당수는, 노력으로 등수를 올릴 수 있는 다른 게임으로 가게 될 것입니다.

4. 컨텐더, 베테랑, 마스터 리그로 나누어 놓은 것은, 구조적인 문제(신참이 노력으로 위로 올라갈 수 없게끔 하는 유리천장)를 근본적으로 해결하는 방법이 아니라, 단지 시한폭탄의 타이머만 조금 더 연장시켜 놓은 보조적인 완화수단입니다. 근본적으로 120층 이상으로 올라가는 사람이 점점 많아질수록, 마스터 리그에서의 상위 랭크 진입 기회 차단 문제는 점점 더 커질 것입니다.

다시 말씀드리지만, 지난 레벨이 계속 누적으로 이어지는 '시즌'에서는 메달의 차이를 실력과 노력으로 상당 부분 커버할 수 있고, 역전할 수도 있습니다. 그런데 제한된 시간 안에 만들어 낸 성과를 평가하는 ANB에서 이미 앞에서 출발하고, 심지어 더 빨리 달리는 사람을 역전한다는 것은 불가능한 이야기입니다. 이것은 단순히 '주장'이 아니라, 현재 실제로 진행되고 있는 일입니다. 아메리칸 드림처럼, 'Eternium Dream'이 가능해야 합니다.그래야 뉴비가 지속적으로 이민 옵니다.

1. There is a question of whether it is desirable in the game structure that players who certainly can ascend the 130th and 140th floors doesn't clime them and just have a time attack on the 79th and 119th floors only because of getting medals. If the reason for winning a medal in the first place is to be 'stronger, to go higher', 'If you want to win a medal, don't go up and keep being the leader of the alley from below' is a contradiction.

2. On the 79th and 119th floors, 'the gap between the rich and the poor is getting bigger' problem is still the same. Just as a person with more medals in ANB master league can go higher, a person with more medals in ANB Content league and ANB veteran league will break the 79th and 119th floors in a shorter time and win another medal. It's a fantasy to have a chance just because it's not a master league. the higher ranks (and the medals) still goes to the players who already have more medals. If the high ranker in Contender or Veteran league goes up to the Master league, now the player hits the glass ceiling of the Master league, and if he or she doesn't go up and continues to collect medals, then Newbie, who comes after him or her, hits the glass ceiling.

3. Once you've entered the top league, you can't go back to the bottom league. Then 'the gap between the rich and the poor is getting bigger' problem in the master league still exists. Do you think there is a possibility that a newly entering player today (March 7, 2023) in the master league can go up beyond the current master league rankers only with his or her skill(in ANB, not in Season)? I don't think so. Newbies don't enter Eternium to be just normal-rank. They should be able to dream higher. Otherwise, plenty of potential Newbies would go to other games where they can dream to be higher rank.

4. Dividing players into contenders, veterans, and master leagues is not a way to fundamentally solve structural problems, it's an auxiliary mitigation measure that only extends the timer of the time bomb a little bit longer. Essentially, as more and more people go up to the 120th floor, the problem of blocking top-ranked opportunities in the master league will grow.

Again, in the "season," where the last level continues to accumulate, the difference in medals can be covered by skills and efforts, and rank can be reversed. But in ANB, which evaluates achievements made in a limited amount of time, it's impossible to reverse someone who's already starting ahead & even faster by buff. It's not just an argument, it's actually what's going on. Like the American Dream, 'Eternium Dream' should be possible. That way, Newbie will continue to immigrate.

[WarriorSeven]

There's a point where frustration with a game's design becomes greater than the joy it brings playing it , and when reached, you have to ask yourself if you're better off doing something else. I for one am okay with the way the game is designed since I've learned to play within its rules, some I don't care for, but overall, it's still fun to play for me.

If you don't like an aspect of the game and would like to see a change, you can submit your case on the Feedback thread to garner additional support for your ideas from other players. On very rare occasions, if there is enough feedback and clamor for change, the Developers have been known to acquiesce. In your case that involves fundamental changes in game design, I really wouldn't expect any changes to this version.

We are all waiting, instead, to see what's in store with the new version of the game being rolled out. Perhaps the Developers have been listening to the MANY complaints and rants regarding medals and have come up with a better solution.

Until then, you can either hang in there and wait and hope for better things to come like the rest of us, or you can simply move on to other things. No sense playing a game if you're not having fun.

[김기현]

Perhaps I(We) should wait to see what is coming. Thanks for your comments, WarriorSeven (and Wispy 2.0 and jcoachran, too).

[aQuaNowBan]

Cheer up 힘내요~

[Arin]

한국분이시네요, 반갑습니다. 이 얘기도 꾸준히 반복적으로 제기되는 주제중 하나인데, 저도 궁금해서 같은 이벤때 메달이 전혀 없는 테스트 계정으로 한번더 똑같이 플레이해서 본계정과 비교해본적이 있습니다. (당시 본계정 메달 각 80여개, 서버 최다). 결론만 말씀드리자면 렙업은 챔렙 1500 도달시간이 10분차이, 챔렙 2000 도달시간이 20분 차이였고 최종 리더보드 순위는 메달없는계정 2위, 본계정 4위로 오히려 노메달이 더 높았습니다 (물론 두 계정 다 극한까지 등반하지는 않고, 등반때 느낌이 어느정도 차이가 나는지만 확인해봤습니다). 결과는 렙업 등반모두 결과를 바꿀만큼 크게 영향이 있지는 않았습니다. 토막메타때였고 지금의 6거인 메타라면 영향은 더 적습니다.

관련글을 포럼 디스커션 게시판에 올린적이 있어 링크 올립니다.

https://forum.makingfun.com/forum/eternium/a-new-beginning-anb/214140-full-medals-vs-zero-medals-test

This is a recurring topic, I was curious as well and once tested it during an ANB event with my test account with zero medal vs. main account with full medals (around 80+ in each at that time). The result was, in short, the difference was not big enough to change the result in both xp farming and push. With zero medal account, it took about 10 minutes longer than with full medals account to reach CL 1500, and 20 minutes more for CL 2000. The final LB rank was, zero medal was rank 2 and full medal was rank 4. (zero medal was higher, I just didn’t push going extremes with both accounts, just focused on how I feel the difference between the two accounts when pushing). So, the gap is not huge. It was cleave meta, and current 6J meta is even less affected by medals.

I posted this test on forum discussion before. Here is the link:

https://forum.makingfun.com/forum/eternium/a-new-beginning-anb/214140-full-medals-vs-zero-medals-test

[LodWig]

The only concrete information available is what I can see in game itself and for that, I can only see that getting my first Medal of Glory will net me 20 Power, which is equivalent to 10 CL

You can see the medal counts and corresponding values of other heroes on the Leaderboards. Select a hero, click on the medal stripe (above the companions), click on each medal.

There is a table showing the actual medal values on the Eternium Discord server there
(I'm sorry I can't post it here on the forum, it's too big.)

[jcochran]

Bojck,

Yes, Arin has mentioned that test in this thread.
But Arin's test is for a medal holder and non-medal holder to reach the same CL. Not to reach equivalent power between the medal and non-medal holders. And even with that short coming, his tests indicate that medals DO NOT have a minor effect at higher CL values. If the effect was minor, the time savings would DECREASE over time as higher CL values are reached, but his tests indicate an INCREASING time savings. And frankly, an increasing time savings is exactly what I would expect. Because a medal holder has an effective additional X added to their CL. So for example, a medal holder reaches CL 2000, while a non-holder needs to reach CL 2000+X in order to have the same power and theoretically clear the same TL. And since the XP required for each CL increases with higher CL levels requiring more XP. As an example, let's assume that X is 100 for some combination of medals. The difference in time between CL 100 and CL 200 is rather minor. But the difference in time between CL 1000 and CL 1100 is greater. And of course, the difference between CL 2000 and CL 2100 is even more.

[Arin]

Hi jcochran,

Sorry but you are wrong again. The time saving is actually decreasing.

0 to CL 1500 requires about 11.4B xp, which took 1h 3 min with full medals and 1h 13 min with zero medal. (10 min longer with zero medal)

CL 1500 to 2000 requires about 32.6B xp, which took 1h 19 min with full medals and 1h 29 min with zero medal. (10 min longer with zero medal)

CL 2000 to 2100 roughly requires about 63.4B xp. It took 2h 11 min with full medals and 2h 23 min with zero medal. (12 min longer with zero medal)

So, the achieved xp amount is getting larger and larger for same 10 min gap between full and zero medal. This means it takes shorter and shorter time gap for same xp amount. In other word, the time saving for xp farming between full medals and zero medal is decreasing as higher CL values are reached, which is the opposite to your statement.

If you understand this and want to keep going, please let me know. Let's go to next stage. Or if you still don't understand this, please feel free to ask me.



PS 1: 80 glory medals give you 180 power (while only 10 glory medals give you 70 power). Please see LodWig's table (LodWig's link above or my attachment below).

PS 2: For your reference, my whole point will be, in short, if medal effect contributes 5 % to ANB result, the player's skill and experience does much more than 95 %. This is not "intellectual dishonesty" at all, but with all my honesty I swear.

PS 3: If you still feel the gap is too huge, just try to get around 10 medals each. It will dramatically reduce the gap. If it is difficult for you to get 10 glory medals, then it is not because you don't have enough medals, but because your skill and experience are not good enough yet. Nullifying medal effects during ANB will not change your ANB result that much, if you are struggling with getting red medals while somebody does rank 2 with zero medal.

[Arin]

I attach LodWig's table showing the actual medal values for those who are not Eternium Discord members.
Thank you LodWig.

[jcochran]

Thank you for posting the medal values. I'm not a discord member and haven't found an active invite on the forum.
As for 80 Glory, from you figures, that's equal to 90 CL. The Vigor medals also add to effective DPS via haste as well as survivability vis life on hit. Any CL equivalency would be an estimate and I think an additional 45 would be reasonable (I suspect 45 would be low since the total size of the haste pool is limited unlike that for power. That smaller pool means that the points contributed via medals is impacted to a lessor degree by diminishing returns). So a real comparison would be the time difference between the medal holder reaching CL 1500 vs the non-holder reaching CL 1635. Same for the CL 2000 going against CL 2135. These are simple comparisons between two champions getting to approximately the same DPS and survivability so as to be capable of clearing the same TL in about the same time. I have to consider your previous timing trials to be lowball figures since they're checking for equal CL values and not checking for equal DPS/survivability since the scoring criteria for ANB events is not what CL you reach, but instead what TL you clear and how fast you do it. I'm not taking into consideration the straight time savings you get from the knowledge medals, but I'd estimate that at about 5% (20x XP vs 21x XP).

[LodWig]

I'm not a discord member and haven't found an active invite on the forum.

Join us!

[jcochran]

My most recent ANB character was Eric in the Veteran League. It will of course be deleted upon completing 5 stars, or when I need an empty slot.

I'm not happy with Making Fun's policy of putting an account into Master League when the account has ANY character reach TL 120 since I believe it's a quite different skill set to level a character fast enough to clear TL 120 during an ANB event with limited time versus what is effectively unlimited time to level and gear up for clearing TL 120 during a season event.

Yes, I understand diminishing returns and agree that the difference between CL 1000 and CL 1135 is more significant than the difference between CL 2000 and CL 2135. But I disagree that the difference between CL 2000 and CL 2135 is insignificant. And the time required for a non-holder to get from CL 2000 to CL 2135 is greater than the time for the same non-holder to get from CL 1000 to CL 1135. Hence my statement that the time savings increase with increasing CL levels.

[Arin]

I see. Believe it or not, CL 135 gap at CL 2000 is not that critical as you think. So don't be too obsessed with "CL 2135". The way how you play is much more important.
Well, you will know it someday as you play this game more. Good luck.

PS: So, it sounds like you are struggling with passing TL 120 during ANB?

[jcochran]

Even something as little as 5% is significant. I would figure that to be about 1 or 2 trial levels, considering that each trial is has the mobs somewhere between 3 and 4 percent more powerful. So in the big picture, 5% may not sound like a lot, but it is a consistent inequality in ANB events and the OP has a good point about the long term viability of the game. Optics matter, and the medals do not give a good look to the game.

The last bronze, I got TL 110. Could have gone further, but since the next reward was at TL 120, there was no good reason to spend the time. The most recent silver, I only played about 5 hours due to RL restrictions.

At the moment, still earning glory for unlocking various pieces of equipment.

[LodWig]

[…] considering that each trial is has the mobs somewhere between 3 and 4 percent more powerful.

Foes get 10% more life and deal 4.5% more damage per trial level, multiplicatively. Slightly less up to TL 37.

[Arin]

jcochran,

OK, good luck with your unlocking gears. Steam version might give you extra glory. Try it if you didn't play it yet.
Regarding medals, I think you just need more experience to understand my point.

[김기현]

'스킬이 중요하다'는 말씀도 맞고, '메달의 차이는 스킬로 극복할 수 있는 수준이다' 라는 말씀도 맞습니다.
단, 전제조건은 '꾸준히 이터니움을 플레이해서, 스킬을 능숙하게 갖춘 플레이어'라는 전제가 붙습니다.

뉴비는 당연히 스킬이 없습니다. 녹룡이 독 쏘면 고렙처럼 와리가리로 피하는 게 아니라 그냥 독 이빠이 맞고 죽는 거에요. 뉴비는 스킬이 아니라 생명력으로 버팅기면서 파란장판 나올 때까지 안 죽고 버텨야 그 층을 깨는 겁니다. (제 경험담이기도 하죠) 따라서 뉴비에게는 힘 수치가 얼마냐, 생명력이 얼마냐, 공생, 신속이 얼마냐 하는 스탯이 엄청 중요해요.

그 '재미없는 구간'을 참고 견뎌서 위의 분들처럼 100위, 50위, 그리고 마침내 랭커가 되면 그 때는 스킬이 메달보다 중요하겠죠. 하지만 뉴비의 90%는 거기까지 안 가고 초보 단계에서 '아, 젠장, 못해먹겠다. 안 그래도 못 하는데, 다른 플레이어들은 나보다 출발선이 앞에 있기까지 하네? 저걸 어떻게 따라잡아?' 하고 게임을 접습니다.
게임이 월급 주는 직장도 아니고, 뉴비가 '아씨, 또 죽었네.' 라고 굳이 스트레스 받아가며 그 노잼구간을 견뎌야 할 이유가 있을까요? 세상에 재미있는 것들이 넘치는데.

랭커가 아니라 스킬 없는 뉴비의 입장에서 생각해 주시면 좋을 것 같습니다.
뉴비가 없으면 게임도 없고, 따라서 랭커도 없습니다...
이터니움 플레이한다고 월급 줄 게 아니라면 뉴비에게 '노오오력'을 요구하면 안 되고, 뉴비가 '재미있어서' 자발적으로 찾아 오도록 인프라를 만들어 줘야 합니다.


It is true that "skill is important," and "the difference in medals is a level that can be overcome by skill."
However, the prerequisite is that 'a player who is skilled by steadily playing Eternium'.

Newbie, of course, doesn't have skills. If a green dragon shoots poison, Newbie doesn't avoid it with skill like a high-level, but just dies after being poisoned. It's not a skill, but a life force, and you have to hold out until the blue pad comes out to break the floor. (my experience,too.) Therefore, the stat of how much strength, vitality, recovery per attack and haste are very important for Newbie.

If you endure the "unfun section" and become 100th, 50th, and finally a ranker like the above, skills will be more important than medals. But 90% of Newbie's players don't get there, and at the beginner level, they say, "Oh, damn it, I can't do it. I'm actually not good at it, but other players start ahead of me and even their running speed is faster(by medal effect). How can I catch up with that?" And they quit the game.
The game is not a paying job. Is there any reason why the newbie player has to endure the no-fun section under stress? The world is full of other fun things.

I think it'd be more nice if you thought about it from Newbie's perspective, not from the ranker's point of view.
Without Newbie, there is no game, so there is no ranker...
If you're not going to pay Newbie for playing Eternium, you shouldn't ask for "haaard effort" from Newbie, but you should create infrastructure so that Newbie comes voluntarily 'for fun'.

[김기현]

LodWig / you are fair and your statements are totally right. I mean it. You could be a very good teacher or professor. But I don't recommend you to run your own business in real world...In the fair and perfect game which you run, I think only 10% of newbie would last. Real world is not the Olympics. It's marketing.

[papa jim]

Yes, thank you Lodwig.

[LodWig]

[...] in real world...

The good old "reality check" argument... Because you are the one that understands reality, and I am a lunatic living in a fantasy world... This is an argument one make when no argument they use is convincing. It basically says, "Trust me I'm right because I know the reality, and you are wrong because you don't. And no, I don't have to prove I know the reality. It's a fact. A real one."

In my fantasy world, some new players crave the sense of progression they get when facing a tough competition. And they will not stay if offered a top ten on first try.

In my fantasy world, some players who tried for a long time to get a medal left in frustration when the same medals were suddenly offered for mere participation.

In my fantasy world, the game is doing quite good on the earning money front, good enough for more resources to be put into its development since a few months.

[Heikki Gross]

The only harm what medals do, is that they provide noobs a sip of copium. It is easy for a player to blame their failure on missing out the medals. If the medals are removed they will still fail and still quit.

As for jcochran I understand that you have never gone past TL110 in ANB and that is probably the reason why you argue about the effects of medals so much. I know that a skilled player will reach 2050CL without medals way faster than 2100CL with medals. But the chance to clear peak trials in ANB, will not get significantly higher if you have 2100CL vs 2050CL. Ppl will go for 2100CL just because they can, its good xp for main, but most importantly, you need crafting materials and going for 2050 will just not be enough trial clears to yield the required ammount.

For all classes, clearing peak trials is not even dependant only on skill, it is dependant on map luck, boss spawn luck, boss spawn and buffs cycle luck etc. Ofc skilled players know how to overcome all of this, but in the end there are many maps and situations what just will not produce the result. So the most important thing is to have enough tries on those trials to lure out the most suitable fo you. So in many cases XP farming is cut for the reason to have enough time for push. The CL ammount is irrelevant, anything past 2K will do. Even CL1950 is enough in most cases.

50cl difference will give you 100 power on top of 4-5K power. That is 2% of the total power. In terms of dmg gain it is usually around 1,6-1,8% at that level. So lets say you will need 1,8% more time to get it all done. That is roughly 10 seconds of the whole trial, there is no pro in this game, who can successfully control their trial progression in a way that they can say, ok, in this trial I will to X move and I will win 10 sec. There are so many variables what just make that 2% completely disappear.

Now there is a whole other section of this arguement, what has not even been touched properly. If a player, who can learn the game, does his research and is generally average skilled (like me for example) starts from zero. That player will reach top 100 on any class during his first few events. If that player will learn from his mistakes and evolves further, he will be able to reach at least top50 in the following events (and im talking about masters league). Then after 4 seasons he will have the following medal state:

40% of the max vit
30% of the max armor
20% of the max XP/EG
35% of the max haste and LOH
25% of the max CR/CD
0% of the max Power

No one, except Arin, is near max medals. Most veterans are at 50 - 75 medal count for each, meaning that in only 4 seasons a dedicated player can have at least half of the medal effects of almost any veteran player because there are diminishing returns.

Now if you say, what about power medals? Then I say that power medals have almost the smallest effect on faster xp farm. Most of it will come from XP, vit and armor. You will have better xp gain and you dont have to invest that much into toughness.

I believe made also a video about it where he compared the medal effects and the result was the same.

[Arin]

Hi Heikki Gross, thank you for the explanation about important aspects of medals & push. I hope beginners read this carefully and know all these are true, but it seems like it's hard for some of them to understand it. Perhaps they need more experience to understand it clearly.

[김기현]

뉴비들을 탈락시키지 않고 더 많이 끌어들이는 방법을 모색하자는 이야기를 하는데, 자꾸 '네가 아직 뉴비라서 몰라서 그런 거야. 고수가 되면 스킬이 훨씬 중요하다니까?' 라고 하니...서로 이야기가 겉도는 것 같아 좀 답답하네요.

ANB에 메달 효과가 있어도 상관없다는 분들은 '뉴비도 노력하면 초기 메달차를 극복하고 해낼 수 있다' 라는 이야기가 요점인 것 같은데...그럴 뉴비는 엄청 소수입니다. '열심히 노력하면 불가능하지는 않다' 수준이 아니라 '꽤 할 만 하다' 수준으로 진입장벽을 낮춰줘야 해요. 뉴비들은 현생과 달리 바로바로 충족감을 느낄 수 있는 게임을 즐기러 온 거지, 2~3년 인생을 갈아 넣어서 3년 뒤에 성취감을 얻을 CPA 시험 공부를 하려고 온 게 아닙니다. 어떤 초보 클라이머가 처음부터 각도 80도짜리 클라이밍에 도전하겠습니까? 초보 클라이머는 레저를 즐기러 온 거지, 다음날 근육통에 앓아 누우려고 온 게 아닙니다. 뉴비가 오기를 원한다면, '네가 노력하면 할 수 있다'라고 뉴비에게 말하는 게 아니라, 클라이밍 각도를 좀 낮춰 줘야죠.

'스킬로 메달을 극복할 수 있다'고 하시는 분들은 기본적으로 뉴비 입장이 아닌 겁니다. 뉴비는 '스킬로 메달을 극복하는 입장'이 아니라, '스킬도 없고 메달도 없는데, 스킬과 메달을 모두 가진 기존 플레이어들과 경쟁해야 하는 입장'입니다. 스킬을 제거해 줄 수는 없으니까, 메달이라도 제거해줘야 뉴 비기닝이지, 아니면 그냥 전국 스킬 자랑 무대밖에 안 됩니다. 뉴비가 낄 자리가 없어요. 스킬로 메달을 극복할 정도의 수준까지 살아남는 뉴비는 처음 이터니움을 시작한 뉴비들 중 극소수일 겁니다. 그걸 웹소설에서는 '연독률 개판났다'고 합니다. 첫1회차를 클릭하는 독자는 많은데, 뒷쪽 회차로 갈수록 조회수가 뚝뚝 떨어지는 거죠. 연독률이 개판나면 작가는 보통 그 소설을 연중(연재중지)하고 삭제해 버립니다. 갈수록 독자가 줄어드는 소설의 미래란 뻔하니까요.

그리고 지금은 메달 최대 보유자가 80개 정도 수준이니까 '스킬로 메달을 극복할 수 있다' 라고 말하지만, 이제 한 달마다 시즌에서 메달 (한 종류당) 2개씩 뿌리고, ANB에서 평균 2주마다 메달 (한 종류당) 1개씩 뿌리는데, 이 추세면 불과 1년 뒤면 메달을 종류별로 100개~150개 가진 사람들이 속출합니다. 2년 뒤면 메달 150~200개 가진 사람들이 될 거고요. 그 때도 '노메달도 오직 스킬로만 메달 1,000개 넘게 가진 사람들을 극복할 수 있다' 고 하실 건가요? 스킬도 메달도 없는 뉴비에게? 그러면 뉴비는 도전하는 게 아니라, 그냥 지금 나에게 훨씬 더 쉽게 충족감을 안겨주는 다른 게임으로 갑니다. 그리고 이터니움은 고인물들끼리만 '이거 진짜 갓겜인데 왜 사람들이 몰라주지?'라고 하면서 말라 죽어가는 거에요.

"임원 되면 연봉 몇 십억 줄게. 그러니까 신입 때는 최저시급만 받고 일해." 라고 하면 그 회사에 지원할 사람이 얼마나 되겠습니까...대부분의 사람들에게 중요한 건 지금인데...

통신사들이 기존 사용자들에게 그렇게 욕을 먹으면서도 신규가입자에게 혜택을 쏟아붓고, 게임회사가 랭커들이 1년 동안 시간과 노력을 쏟아부어야 얻을 수 있던 아이템을 어느날부터 갑자기 신규가입자에게 뿌려대는 건, 국가가 고소득자들에게 말도 안 되는 세금과 의료보험비를 걷어가는 건, 그렇게 해야 그 회사가, 그 게임이, 그 국가가 유지되고 돌아갈 수 있기 때문입니다. 쉽게 말해서, 랭커들이 장기적으로 존재하려면, 노블레스 오블리쥬로 뉴비들에게 어느 정도는 비합리적으로 양보를 해 줘야 됩니다. 그래야 뉴비도 살고 랭커도 살아요.

저는 일단 드릴 말씀은 다 드린 것 같아서 여기까지만 이야기하겠습니다.

I'm constantly saying that we should find ways to attract more newbies, but some of them keep saying, "It's because you're still newbies. Skills are much more important if you become a master." I'm a little frustrated because it seems like we're not talking about the same thing...

For those who don't care if ANB has a medal effect, the point is that "Newbies can overcome the early medal gap if they try."There are very few newbies who will. The entry barrier should be lowered not to the level of "It's not impossible if you try hard," but to the level of "it's quite worth doing." Unlike real life, newbies came to enjoy a game that they can feel satisfied right away, not to study for the CPA test, which will change their lives for two to three years and get a sense of accomplishment in three years. Which novice climber would challenge an 80-degree-angle climb from the start? The beginner climber came to enjoy leisure, not to lie down with muscle pain the next day. If you want Newbie to come, you should lower the angle of climbing, not tell Newbie, "You can do it if you try really hard."

Those who say they can overcome medals with their skills are basically not Newbie's position. Newbie is not in a position to overcome medals with skills, but in a position to compete with existing players who have both skills and medals, even though newbie has no skills and medals. We can't remove the skills, so it's New Beginning if we remove the medals, or it's just a skill-boasting parades by high-level players. There's no room for Newbie. Newbies who survive to the level of overcoming medals with their skills are probably very few of the first Newbies to start the Ethereum. In web novels, it's called "the 'reading rate' has been smashed." Then the author usually deletes the novel, for the future of it is obvious.

And now that the largest number of medals is around 80, they say, "You can overcome medals with skills," but now they spray two medals (for every color type) per season every month, and one medal (for most color type) per around two weeks at ANB. Therefore, in a year, more and more people would have 100 to 150 medals per type. In two years, they would have 150 to 200 medals. Are you still going to say, "Newbies who have no medals can overcome people who have more than 1,000 medals (in total) only with their skills?" To Newbie, who has no skills or medals? Then newbies wouldn't challenge, they just go to another game that makes it a lot easier for them to feel fulfilled right now. And Eternium is drying up and dying, high-level players saying, "This is a real god game. Why don't people recognize it?"

If the company says "If you become an executive, I'll give you million dollars a year. So when you're a rookie now, you should work only for a minimum hourly wage.", how many people would apply for the company, when the important thing for most people is 'now'...?

Even though they are criticized by existing subscribers so much, telecommunications companies are constantly giving new subscribers many benefits, and game companies are suddenly giving new subscribers items that rankers have to spend a year on, they're taking ridiculous taxes and health insurance costs for high-income earners because that's how they can keep the company, game, the country. Simply put, if the rankers are to exist in the long run, they have to make some unreasonable concessions to the newbies as Noblesse Oblige. That way, rankers can live, too.

I think I've told everything I have to say, so I'll stop here.

[Arin]

"아린 님 말씀은, '어차피 메달이 있건 없건 뉴비는 못할 거고 고수는 잘할 테니 (스킬 말씀하시는 거겠죠) 실제적으로 순위는 메달이 있건 없건 크게 바뀌지 않을 거다' 라고 말씀하시는 것으로 이해해도 될까요? "

-> 맞습니다. 그런데 제 말씀은 그렇다고 해서 "어차피 뭔 짓을 해도 순위가 바뀌지 않을 거" 라는 말씀이 아니라 뉴비가 실력이 늘지 않는한 메달이 많건 적건 상관없이 결과가 바뀌지 않을거란 얘깁니다. 그리고 바꿔말씀드리자면 뉴비도 얼마든지 실력이 늘수 있고 실력이 늘면 메달과 상관없이 당연히 순위가 바뀐다는 말씀이기도 합니다.

그리고 그 실력이라는게 거창하게 기현님 말씀처럼 오랜기간 노력해야 느는것도 아닙니다. 물론 시즌 챔피언 정도라면 조금 얘기가 다를수 있겠지만 탑25, 혹은 경우에 따라 탑10 정도는 제대로 된 방향으로 가신다면 메달 도움없이 단기간에 오르실수 있습니다. 물론 어느정도 개인차가 있을것이고 올바른 조언이 필요할수 있으며, 어느정도의 노력과 시간투자도 (당연히) 필요합니다. 혹은 정말 소질이 없으신 분이라면 힘들수도 있겠으나, 그런분이라면 메달이 더 있다고 해서 결과가 달라지지 않을거란 말씀입니다.

혹시 네이버 카페에 가입하셨는지 모르겠으나 그쪽도 좋고 아니면 제가 있는 디스코드에 오셔도 쉽게 좋은 조언을 구할수 있습니다.

명백히 실제로 가능한것을 많은 뉴비가 불가능하겠다고 느낀다면
그건 개발자가 풀어야 할 숙제입니다. 제가 말씀드릴수 있는건 "명백히 실제로 가능하다" 까지 입니다. 혹시 어느 클래스에, 어느정도 순위권에 계시는지 여쭤봐도 될런지요.

Newbies can get better result without medals. The important is the way how they play it, and they can easily improve it if they get proper advice and go to right direction. I believe you can get enough info for it at your Naver community if you are a member there, or at discord.
Solving this is devs' work, all I can say is "doing well without medal is obviously possible".

[김기현]

생각해 보면, 역시 개발자가 풀어야 할 숙제인 게 맞는 것 같습니다. 어차피 운영하는 것도, 수익을 내거나 손해를 보는 것도 개발자이고 사실 우리는 그냥 플레이를 하고 의견을 내면 되는 것인데, 아린 님과 저를 포함한 많은 이들이 이 게임에 애정이 있다 보니 '이 게임이 더 발전하려면, 더 지속되려면 어떻게 해야 할까'하는 토론이 조금 길어진 것 같습니다.

지금까지 나온 내용들 중에서 어떤 내용을 어떻게 반영할지는 개발자가 알아서 취사선택할 영역이겠죠. 더 이상은 저와 아린 님을 포함한 코멘트 작성자 분들에게서 새로운 정보가 나오지 않고 그 이상은 팩트가 아니라 각자의 주관적 해석의 영역인 것 같아서, 코멘트 새로 다는 것도 여기까지만 하겠습니다.

Ps. 이 논의에 김기현의 캐릭터 관련 정보가 굳이 필요하다고 생각하지 않기 때문에, 여기서는 말씀드리지 않겠습니다. (네이버 까페에 보시면 제가 쓴 글들이 여러 개 있긴 합니다)

[Arin]

네, 그리고 "명백히 가능한 일" 이기에 개발자가 선택할수 있는 옵션이 메달효과를 없애는것만 있는건 아닐겁니다. 메달효과를 너무 절대적으로 보시고 그걸 없애는 것만을 유일한 옵션으로 생각하시는거 같아서 조금 설명이 필요하다 싶었고, 기현님 입장을 이해해보려고 순위를 여쭤봤습니다만, 내키지 않으시다면 알겠습니다. 개인적으로는 메달효과를 없애던 말던 상관은 없습니다.

네이버 카페는 한때 회원이었던 적이 있었지만 지금은 디스코드만 하고 있습니다. 즐겜하시고 좋은 성과 이루시기기 바랍니다.

Yes, & because it is certain that newbies can do it well without medals, nullifying medal effects during ANB might not be the only option for devs. It seemed that you overestimate medal effects, so I wanted to share my previous test result showing it's actually not. I asked your ranking to understand your situation better, but it's fine if you don't want to share it. Personally, I don't care whether medal effect is nullified or not. I was in Naver cafe before, but currently Discord only. Good luck to your journey.

[LodWig]

So, medals should only be applied for the season.

Why apply medals for the season? Season competition is hard for newbies, because they don't have the gear the old timers have: full 77s, celestialized. Nor the recipes, craft resources, gems, gold, abilities level, companions...

I think we should remove the medals and the gear and everything earned by the old timers during season, so the newcomers have a chance at top... something.

Edit: funny I forgot the Champion Level… Let’s nullify it also during Season!

[LodWig]

And another fact from my fantasy world: We had a friendly competition during ANB Bronze #13, that was based on the idea of Living Off the Land: starting with a new account (so no medals), using only 645 Gems from the main toon, and more importantly using only dropped gear (no buying, no crafting), plus some more restrictions.

I ended #6 with a TL 129 in the Contender league.

Edit: my point is that knowledge of the game mechanics is far more important than anything else, medals included.