ANB Idea, sounds crazy but give it some thought.

[Verminnard]

First, I would like to say thanks to the developers for some of the changes that have happened for the current set of ANBs. I love the fact that you can get 2 CTs per ANB event.
This allows many players to expand how they want to play the game. They are no longer locked in on a particular set or character class. Players can actually complete a “set” of CT items for their chosen class and gear, and now It allows that player to expand and try different things with different classes or different sets. They are no longer “set” or “class” locked.
New players actually will have a chance to compete on the leaderboards following an event. Before, a new player had no real chance to compete on the leader boards even after they put in the time and effort. Now they can. That is great for the future of the game and I applaud it.

Moving forward I really only propose 1 major change to the ANB set up.
Limit the number of gems that can be used from the main account during ANB or separate them completely (which would be my choice). If some kind of controls were placed on this, it would somewhat level the playing field with the mega farmers that somehow have unlimited gems to spend during the ANB event.
I understand, people can still buy gems in ANB and many will. A lot of people are going to initially say that this is a horrible idea and that the “whales” will take over the leader boards. To some degree, I would agree with that point.

Here is the question you should ask yourself on this point:
“Would this really have a huge impact on your rankings in ANB or your ANB experience?”
The answer is NO. While people that spend money on the game would obviously have an advantage it is still less than the off season 24-7 farmers, that always seem to have unlimited gems and craft perfects with relative ease.
Only difference would be that people that support the game with real money would probably replace those on the leader boards that always seem “shady”. Real money also supports this game and allows it to continue.
What does the 24-7 Shady player do for this game?
Who would you rather lose to, someone you suspect is cheating or a whale that just kept this game free and available to play?
We say cheaters never win. Guess what? Right now, they are winning.

If you agree, please support this or come up with another solution that fixes this problem if you can.
it is about the longevity of a game that many of us love to play.
If this gets a lot of support, I believe the Devs will have no problem with this. Its not like they are going to say “damn, wish I wasn’t getting all this extra revenue from my game during ANB”. It is also a very easy fix.

[Keaven]

I think something like this could work.

I'm biased because I'm not particularly interested at competing for top ranks, but if gems couldn't be spent in ANB I wouldn't mind as long as milestones weren't out of reach.

If there was limited purchases available for anyone wanting to compete for ranks, I don't see the big deal as the medal rewards aren't a massive advantage. No idea if the game would make more money this way, but if it could that would be good.

[Keaven]

From the input of others I don't think this would work well.

[Verminnard]

I have actually put a little bit of thought into the amount. I feel like 5k would be about optimal, this would not prevent casual players from spending gems in ANB, doing some upgrades and picking up a crate.
Basically allows them to be competitive without spending real money is that is what they choose.
It still allows those that seek a bigger advantage to spend a little bit more.(which also supports the game)
And prevents those that "gamed" the system a long time ago and already have a ton of gems from abusing it during ANB.
When the ANB concludes the leftover gems would be returned to the main account such that no one loses anything.

I actually appreciate the questions, only way we fix this is to come up with a solution that the majority feels is fair and does not make people feel like it is 100% pay to play.

[Coldet]

My general budget for an ANB is 12k and I do not think it to be excessive.

[Ozymandius]

The Devs know how many gems each player spends on an ANB event, so they are probably better equipped to establish a fair spending budget for a single event, but I agree with Coldet that 5k is too low to afford big ticket items like opening up third ability learning slot (900 gems) or purchase extra companions (500 gems each), and it puts the legendary crafting crate (2.5k gems) completely off the table for anyone who does not purchase the Bountiful Chest $30 or Titan's War Chest $50. A player could spend actual cash to buy 3 Bountiful and 2 Titan's chests, so unless they cut off these big ticket purchases, the gem limit would be essentially meaningless.

[lmcelhiney]

For ANB Gold, I decided to just use gems that I acquired during the event. I just used about 100 gems at first and replaced them. Then I have just maintained that incoming level. I did this because I spent about 5000 gems on each of ANB Bronze and ANB Silver. I have about an hour left and am very, very close to not getting any CTs! Just playing for fun and resources...

[Stusmith50]

It looks like the average top of leaderboard player uses $200 worth of gems every ANB (2x77 and all required skills to 10). Can you farm that in a reasonable way? I certainly can't get close to that. If they're paying that every ANB, then they can have a big thumbs up from me for keeping this game alive! Otherwise I agree with the OP. Do something to make the leaderboard meaningful again, not just a build library.

[Tin Man]

You can get not just all the required skills to level 10 but all abilities to level 10 without spending any gems doing it other than unlocking the Ability Upgrade Slots. You can use realtime to upgrade abilities plus the guaranteed Greater Book of Learning you get every Trial Level 80 and above goes a long way to help. When you focus on farming for Champion Levels, other things tend to take care of themselves, like leveling up abilities.

Spending gems to get level 10 abilities is just not necessary.

[Triggus]

I think, with all the goodies that came with new crafting rules for ANB there was a consequence too. Certain people have a bigger then ever advantage being able to spend "unlimited" amount of gems whatever their origin.
The shorter the game time available (this would be most pronounced in GOLD ANB) the bigger the advantage. As technically you could do almost everything with gems (buy jewelry, gold, crates, skills etc). This does not matter for normal season LB's when people spending have maybe "easier" way to get better gear or other stuff while rest of the player can stay competitive having enough to time to keep up should they have dedication to do so. The biggest problem for season are probably botters getting insane cl's leaving every one way behind. But as for ANB especially in current improved form being able to spend unlimited removes all the aspects of what makes ANB fun - Plan your game, stick to the plan, think it through, learn, time it well. Some one who can spend 30-50k gems will just buy everything and go xping for all the time except hour or two for push and then get the medals and "glory".
So I am all in for limit on gems in ANB, but this have to be reasonable. It still should be still worth saving games for ANB and having nice pool of games making a difference.
From the experience majority of more or less seasoned players started spending some 10-12k gems on GOLD last season, and probably a little more this season so I think 15k limit would be a good starting point - subject to some analysis to balance it properly so gems still play vital role in character development yet youll not find 2k cl characters with nearly perfect gear clearing TL's comparable to season top within first three days of event while you still sit there watching you skills cooked - a bit depressing ;P

[Ozymandius]

Verminnard This has been proposed many times as a way to "level the playing field" for players with smaller budgets. I do agree that the playing field currently favors players with large gem stashes or those who are willing to purchase what they need through the Event Value Packs. Most established players built up gem stashes through Season rewards to allow them more liberal gem spending during the current ANBs, but there are likely many on the leaderboards who just purchase the event packs with actual cash to avoid having to do the work of stockpiling gems. Imagine being able to simply buy an event pack or a legendary crafters crate whenever you are getting low on materials; must be nice... It clearly gives them a competitive advantage, but it is not really "cheating" under the current rule system.

I think the developers considered offering an event with limited cap on gems because there are a lot of players who want a true "eat what you kill" ANB with a level playing field (including capping gems and turning off medals and event pack purchases). So far this type of event has not been offered, but it is good to keep reminding them that players want to participate in that kind of event.

[Stusmith50]

I don't think the point is to stop people buying as many gems as they want inside the ANB event. Just to stop the use of alternative rules methods to obtain gems outside of ANB, and use these as an advantage within ANB. Let the whales whale from within ANB.

[Verminnard]

Purpose is not to limit the amount of gems you can use or buy in ANB. Just limit the amount you can bring over from your main account at the start of ANB. People would still be able to buy as many gems in ANB as they saw fit.

[Keaven]

A gem limit period makes more sense than a gem transfer limit as you put it. No point punishing legitimate gem holders because of botters, there are simpler methods of weeding botters out if the developers desired.

[Triggus]

Verminnard

...I think the developers considered offering an event with limited cap on gems because there are a lot of players who want a true "eat what you kill" ANB with a level playing field (including capping gems and turning off medals and event pack purchases). So far this type of event has not been offered, but it is good to keep reminding them that players want to participate in that kind of event.

Current ANB after all these changes are completely new environment incomparable to whatever devs considered or not in the past.
I still think this is something worth considering by developers. Its quite clear that many of the new ANB series top spots aren't actually occupied by stockpilling veterans bursting through their gem pools for the event, quite often those are players who do not really shine on seasonal lb's where advantage of massive game pool or ability to get advantage by buying a lot for real cash is sort of limited.

I'd like idea to stockpile/buy event packs (these are limited to 3 per pack for reason aren't they?) and use for ANB but some sort of quite liberal cap would be beneficial to the whole of community as at the moment there is handful of players with massive resources (bought, botted whatever) that are ruining the fun for hundreds if not thousands of others. And afaik foundation of Eternium being game written by players for players was to limit Pay2win factor to minimum while still providing developers with some revenue. I know myself there are legit large gem pools out there gathered over time or by 5 starring story over and over, known players having 100k + legit gems - but even them aren't spending usually more then 20k of hard earned gems per event.
Having a cap of lets 15k and ability to buy those 3 of each packs for money will still provide a bonus for the wealthy while s giving a shot for those on the budget

[13ft shadow]

lol was actually gonna make this same thread, but life is chaos, and i have little time so thnx to verminard for getting this topic started, less work for me lol, and only helps to build the discussion.

so, have put heavy thought into this for weeks, and have spoken with many tops regarding the subject as well. will attempt to fully explain the reasoning, and why this is necessary. also why its not a matter if this is good idea, but simply put, the key is where to place the cap.. that is everything, and as ozymandius and/or others said, the devs will easily be able to determine this for themselves. so any numbers used here are simply examples, as well as recommendations

after some discussions, kunpaogao came up with the gem cap idea of 20k/anb, i believe this is the perfect number to place it at.. now, with placing a 20k gem cap on anb's, you now have done many things to the economy of anb. while further cementing yourself as non pay to win game, in the eyes of the gamers.

this will further help competition, by not only taking away gem cushions, but also adding more strategy into how gems are spent for the anb competition. anb is currently a pie with nvr ending proportions, so it is impossible for a player to discern the true value of an event pack.. you know the size of your piece of pie, but not the size of the whole pie. by adding this cap, you will effectively create a set dimension of size for the pie, increasing the size or 'value' of each piece, without actually changing them, or the size of the pieces.. you have just shrunk the pie this will make event packs more 'appealing' to players, as they now know the true value of the pack.. this will certainly increase sales for you, i would stake another 1 of travis's fingers, on this being a sure bet!.. lol sorry travis

with this cap in place you have also made things fairer for smaller gem stack players, as well as newbs. they now know the max possible being spent, and can gain comfort in game planning, as well as fairer play. while at the same time, legit large gem stack players can still meet gem cap, and gain comfort in knowing they can't be out gem spent, as well as ability to increase boosters with mains. most players won't/don't spend that amount, so most gameplans will remain unchanged..

the only players this would/should negatively effect are mega whales whom spend well over $500usd/anb event, as well as players whom gain strangely massive gem stacks in proportion to actual $$$ spent... this is where dp will have to decide things, this is the key... you have already limited the number of packs available, a cap of 20k gems would still allow a whale to purchase every single event pack (all multiples) as well as a 17k gem $99usd pack for each anb. spend the 20k cap, while keeping 8kish gems for boosters or whatever they wish... i leave it to you to discern the number of whales this would effect vs. the number of in game 'pirates' it would effect, taking away from some ther said 'pirate bootys' usefulness...

this would eliminate the ability for players to spend 40k gems/anb, and make 4-8 c orbs/anb, without spending real cash, for you to make... as much as 5k cap would make competition extreme, you must make $$$, and you must allow room for whaling.. this is understood, and would fit well with 20k cap... this would benefit all players, as well as dp/mf make more funds off happier gamers...

an easy way to accomplish this would be to create a gem counting bar, with a 10% end event gem match, attached to the anb hero.. similar to the season match bar. this would allow a gem counter for players to track ther spending, set the hard gem cap itself, as well as provide the 'generous' 10% gem match at anb end button... this 10% match would work to make players more willing to spend gems for anb event, as an expenditure of 20k for event, would recieve a 2k return afterwards.. this would be a good thank you, to make players more interested in the eventium grind, helping to keep some gems for further ccompetitions. as rewards are 'earned' in competition, this would be a 'gift' from you to players, as thank you for playing event.

wow, been posting pretty massive posts lately lol k, no more from me for now..

back to the shadows

[Verminnard]

Started it based on the Discord conversation from a few days ago. Its really your thread It was your idea. I will say that I don't care as much about how many gems someone buys during ANB. If someone chooses to spend 400 dollars on each ANB for gems, cool. It supports the game. SO my focus was not to limit the Whales, it was to limit those that spent very little money, already have massive amounts of "suspect" farmed gems on the main account that they now use during the ANB.

[LoXRoX]

I like Verminnard idea.

Here's why:
The game is great. It's even better that it's not pay2win.
Early on I enjoyed the progress and that I could witness my character becoming mightier, quicker and more powerful. But now it's only the competition that keeps me interested.

So, I grow reluctant to compete and pay for my monthly membership when reading about botters. There are several ways out. Which one the devs choose - I don't even care. But the communication with the community is sub-par. Either devs take convincing action against cheaters/botters. Or they convince me they already do everything they can. Or I will stop paying and in the long term also stop playing - unfortunately!!

Free2play > pay2win >> bot2win

But Verminnard suggestion would be an action that would suffice for me to stay interested - that's for sure!

[Keaven]

100%.

I'm not at that point yet, still having fun with end-game goals, but that won't last forever.

Your point on communication is understated.

[Verminnard]

Fine points Tin man.
Perception, false or not, impacts the longevity of the game. If you believe all the Obebi's of the world are legit players, you have that right. But you are in the minority and not the majority.
When the majority of players that support the game through purchases leave, I wonder how long the game will last for. I support free to play 100%, but at the end of the day its not what keeps the game alive.

Perfect crafting on almost all items during ANB event and even crafting celestial orbs to increase stats........that would be 40,000 gems to spend each ANB.........so round down and we just say 100,000 gems for the 3 ANB events of a season......at 1000 per day.......so they spend 100 days of 5-8 hours a day to get the gems required for a ANB. Yup sounds "legit" to me........2 seasons a year.......so 200 days per year.......)
Champ Levels over 2400 on season leader boards was done within the terms of service
Champ level of almost 2000 during a gold ANB event.
I am quite sure all of these things are related in some way........I just wish I could figure out how.

We can all pretend that there are no problems and its all good as is or we can try to think of ways to fix it.
No solution is going to make 100% of the community happy, regardless of that, there ARE solutions that will ensure the longevity of the game.

13ft shadow and Jblocka are probably 2 of the best bounty hunters in the game that i know of, when they choose to express things that seem "out" of place or very "suspicious" even for the best of players to accomplish, then i choose to listen.

For the developers this is a business first and foremost and it was an idea, developers can do nothing or consider it.
Its really easy for me to keep my money in my pocket moving forward and try the free experience, competing on leader boards (season or ANB) is currently a joke with all the little things that just seem a little bit too far fetched for most to believe is legit.

Done with this, Thanks.

[Keaven]

...Then again, maybe the only thing that will finally stop all this is to actually add a VIP ranking to profiles, with ranks depending on how much they have spent, like P2W games... Then you can see roughly how much players have spent on the game, but not the exact amount (for privacy reasons, or what ever)...

This would be a good start.

[Tin Man]

Yeah, I did not pick up on any sarcasm in your remark and I live off sarcasm. I took your post as completely serious.

Not being negative. Just letting you know how I read it.

[Keaven]

It's only obvious if you presume I was not being sarcastic lol.

[Tin Man]

Touche! Point well taken.

[Tin Man]

Fine points Tin man.
Perception, false or not, impacts the longevity of the game. If you believe all the Obebi's of the world are legit players, you have that right. But you are in the minority and not the majority.
When the majority of players that support the game through purchases leave, I wonder how long the game will last for. I support free to play 100%, but at the end of the day its not what keeps the game alive.

Never have I ever been supportive of alternate rules players and they should all be removed. However, as players, we have very limited knowledge of how people play the game and most of the time can only guess and make assumptions. We can have suspicions, which can prove to be right.

How can any player know whether or not someone else has purchased a Celestial Orb? Sure, perfect items are suspicious. Only the developers have any potential ability to know the truth.

The funniest thing? The community does choose to ignore blatant alternate rules players that harm other players. Why do I say blatant? Because they readily acknowledge their cheating on the Forum.

Do whatever you want with regards to your thread. Whatever changes that are made regarding ANBs will just cause most players to go with the flow and adjust and figure out ways to maximize their outcomes.

If you want to rail against players that you are concerned use alternate rules, maybe you should start with the ones that are very public about it.

I am more than happy to be done with discussions that are overly simplistic all while ignoring obvious things.

[LoXRoX]

I read in another post of yours Tin Man that you prefer being asked how you feel over making assumptions. Are you annoyed and do you wish for a detailed look at the problem?

I really appreciate your contribution to the discussion and to the forum in general. If you withdraw from the discussion the whole thread loses nuance and detail in my humble opinion. So, I would highly prefer your further paticipation. At the same time I'm afraid that by trying to discuss and solve every problem at once it starts to overwhelm people and by a notion of ~ "Well, the devs can't solve ALL of these problems at once" (which I agree with) draw the conclusion of ~ "Well, I guess we have to settle with what we have" (which I highly disagree with).

Yes, let's also combat blatant alternate rules players (even though I'm not sure I get who you referring to)! But do all these other problems really directly relate to the suggestion of Verminnard ?

I read about the suggestion would hurt free2play players. Okay that's a thesis or opinion you all are entitled to have. But can you also make a convincing argument? I haven't even read an - convincing or unconvincing - argument. And finally @devs: If you guys would communicate better about these issues Tin Man wouldn't have to do the unpleasant job of playing "devil's advocate". So do us all a favor and upgrade your communication skills and increase the amount you use it.

[Tin Man]

Just to be clear, I was not trying to suggest that all the problems need to be solved at once. I only contributed to ask questions and suggest the possible implications of any proposals. As you allude, any proposal should be able to withstand legitimate questions and scrutiny.

However, the discussion was starting to cause personal interjection from me rather than just devil's advocate which is why I felt it necessary to remove myself from the discussion.

Whatever comes from the discussion? I am sure my ability to meet personal goals will not be impacted.

The players that don't actually stink at the game are much better sources of possible resolution.

[LoXRoX]

What does the capping really achieve? A uniform limitation on every player for the Gems that they bring into the event, regardless of whether they achieved it legitimately or not. The core of the problem still exists, so while it provides you with a feeling of "fairness", no such things have been achieved. Those so-called botters will still be bringing what ever the capped amount is every ANB and do whatever they want with it... Put the cap too high and it's meaningless, putting it too low means everyone can do less...

To reveal where I'm coming from: Fairness doesn't exist and if it existed we couldn't grasp it objectively. So, I'm completely fine with a "feeling of fairness". It's actually the only thing I care about.

I agree a too high cap would be meaningless. I also agree with "putting it too low means everyone can do less..." in an absolute sense. In a relative sense (and that's the only important factor imho for the competition) the (desired) effect will be that skill is relatively more important than pre-farmed gems. As you still can buy gems which is fine, as it benefits the devs and therefore the community.