A RPG element

[Purple Potato]

Right now a mage with singularity going can recover his full hp probably multiple times a sec.

Not really... It takes a few seconds for me to heal full hp with no LoH on gear.

[Arionthe]

you can build a very tanky mage. I agree. keep in mind a nerf to singularities healing would really hurt mages... as it is really our only way to heal

You are right. So balancing it will be the key. I'm looking for more distinctness amongst classes. For a mage, again just thinking out loud here, I think a damage shield is more critical. HP should be that last line of defense and rarely breached. So imagine skills/passives that enhance the shield bubble. Max 200% of hp instead of 25%. Way to cast it instead of relying on proc. Anyway the mage in my imagination should have his robe seldomly ruffled by anything so ordinary as an arrow.

[strut v 900]

That is why I said this may trigger a rethinking about mob dmg. Right now a mage with singularity going can recover his full hp probably multiple times a sec. which creates an odd situation where if purely measured by tankiness, you can build a tankier Mage than a shield warrior given the same amount of stat gear investment

you can build a very tanky mage. I agree. keep in mind a nerf to singularities healing would really hurt mages... as it is really our only way to heal

[Arionthe]

this may work in lower trials, but in higher trials everything one shots me... getting a health pool to stay at lower% for higher dmg buff would be very hard. and probably impossible to tbalance

That is why I said this may trigger a rethinking about mob dmg. Right now a mage with singularity going can recover his full hp probably multiple times a sec. which creates an odd situation where if purely measured by tankiness, you can build a tankier Mage than a shield warrior given the same amount of stat gear investment

[Arionthe]

If you have LoH and recover be effective to HP %, then how would it matter what your HP is? All it HP would do is the reduce the % by a small ineffective bit and it would recover at the same % as if you didn't have more Vitality.

That is actually the goal. Meaning make investment into vitality, the size of your hp pool, an important factor. Let’s say your recovery is 5% a sec, you would recover 500hp per sec if your hp pool is 10k. But would recover 1k hp if your hp pool is 20k.

[strut v 900]

this may work in lower trials, but in higher trials everything one shots me... getting a health pool to stay at lower% for higher dmg buff would be very hard. and probably impossible to tbalance

[Purple Potato]

If you have LoH and recover be effective to HP %, then how would it matter what your HP is? All it HP would do is the reduce the % by a small ineffective bit and it would recover at the same % as if you didn't have more Vitality.

[Arionthe]

Coda Primus Appreciate the input. My idea was merely to introduce a game mechanic that links DPS to HP pool while making the game more realistic. However as you guys know there are a number of areas in the current game that I find imbalanced. The mechanic wasn't meant to address those imbalances, but rather as something I like to see in an RPG period. As far as the loophole that Coda found in my theorycraft, that's actually addressable. Itself is linked to another area that I feel needs rebalancing: Toughness vs Recovery.

In one of my posts in the Bart's warrior thread, I mentioned my view about current meta where recovery vastly outweights toughness as far as importance to game success. Let me make a suggestion on how to address that.

Currently Recovery and toughness is only superficially related. And that link is armor, which, as Coda has pointed, is one of the weakest stat in the game. Conceptually I see recovery as made up of two parts. Out of combat recovery and in combat recovery. Life regeneration is closest to out of combat recovery. In combat recovery is currently represented by LoH and few skills that have healing properties.

Problem with life regeneration and LoH is that both are flat stats. As everyone knows flat stats are difficult to balance, tends to be overpowered at low levels and useless at high levels.

Let me suggest this meta instead for recovery.

Turn Life Regeneration to a rating. Turn LoH also to a rating.

The actual balancing and the formulas I leave to Red (Developer) The principle is that Life regeneration should recover a % of your hp pool per second. If a player doesn't invest any stats into life regeneration outside of the CPs, then I feel life regeneration should recover about 5% of a player's HP pool per sec. This way adding vitality will actually improve your life regeneration, creating more stat interaction. Which I believe is a goal of the developers.

The biggie is LoH and what I refer to as in combat recovery. Players need far more recovery during combat to sustain oneself. Currently there is very few true "heal" skills in the game. To me that's an opportunity missed. Quite frankly if co-op is an end goal, this is a game mechanic void that perhaps should be filled by a future class.

For now, LoH vastly dominate toughness in terms of determining the tankiness of a character. I feel LoH should be renamed to Life Recovery. Make it work like life regeneration but at an accelerated level (since we need more of it during combat). So at base level, Life Recovery Rating, just CP investments, should get you ~4x what Life regeneration does. The easy way to do this is simply add Life Recovery * 4 + Life Regeneration = %hp recovered per sec while in combat. When out of combat, Life Recovery is simply removed. Certain skills should have a benefit to Life Recovery. The reason I suggest this is also to remove haste from impacting Recovery. Haste is already hyper important given its input to DPS and alacrity. Before mages hurl rotten eggs towards me, read my next sentence. Certain skills should grant bonuses to combat life recovery (that seems like a better name for it). For example Singularity can grant a 200% boost to combat life recovery while it is active. Shockwave's healing can be adjusted to give bonus the same way. By linking combat recovery to % of hp pool recovered per sec, you bring hp pool and recovery of said hp pool back into balance.

Given the above recovery meta, then Coda's loophole doesn't really exist anymore. As recovery is linked with the size of the hp pool, not independent of it. I have a vision for this game. But I know my ideas are a bit out of the mainstream. So like peeling an onion, I have to expose them one layer at a time.

Feel free to poke holes at this. Btw above meta will probably trigger a rethink about mob damage. But as a foundation, I feel it will make balancing the game and adding contents more flexible going forward. Plus granting more interesting skill possibilities.

For example in my original post, I hinted at skills to counter act the weakening effect on DPS from poor health. Skills/Passives like Iron Will for warrior (Ignore DPS reduction for anything >25%), Or weakening effect is different from each class. For example, BH suffers Critical damage chance from poor hp (hey you are not as precise to strike at those weak pts when you are seeing stars), mages suffer % of misfired spells (try utter those magic words perfectly when your pain receptors are all firing overtime). Anyway many things are possible. A chance to really make classes feel distinct and apart.

to Primus, I don't have some hidden motive to buff SW. I speak up for it, beyond the fact I play it, due to the fact it's really weak. But my suggestions are really motivated by something deeper. I like to see a deeper game. Complexity in a game isn't necessarily a bad thing. It just has to be the right complexity. I like complexity in builds, in finding that perfect combo. But I detest complexity when it's in the actual gameplay. For example attack switching, kiting etc. A perfect mobile game should be rich and deep in its setup, but the gameplay itself should be simple and smooth. Just one man's opinion.

[Primus]

There you go Arionthe, Coda finds loop holes in your theorycrafting and suggests perhaps something better again.Still agree with the fact that your thought process is good,just stop tilting towards that SW .

[Coda]

Toughness today, is mainly Armor and Vitality. Armor is a diminishing returns stat, vitality is not. So why invest "more" in Armor? Hardly anyone does. Block, Parry and Dodge have almost no usefulness.

Suggestions related to tilting the balance a little bit away from DPS:

1) Reduce the dimishing returns effect of Armor. Could even make the constant in the formula's denominator, different for different classes.

2) Increase shield base armor, block rating, and the damage from throwing your shield, to make SW builds more viable. Throwing your shield instead of a second weapon could do something else interesting like stun, blind, or DoT. Equipping a shield could have an automatic cool down reduction for Deadly Throw vs. no 'CDR' if a second weapon is equipped. {It's unrelated to the main point of this thread, but could also buff Sword & Board and Shield Block.}

3) Buff block and parry, either the damage reduction itself, the % chance, or the damage/skill procs they can generate if the right Utility or Passive is equipped.

4) Not really sure what to do with Dodge. It seems to be semi-useful only for a BH, but not as a stat to invest in. But, do something with it along these lines.

With all that said, if my hero is low on health, and its DPS drops way down, then what I would invest in first is probably not Toughness but rather Recovery (LoH and AS). This would keep health near max better, and counterintuitively, one would want LOW health so that LoH gets it back to 100% quicker.

So, me personally, I am not in favor of the original post's specific idea, per se, but I really like the thought process behind it.

[Arionthe]

A missed opportunity for a lot of the RPG games out there is the fact we do the same damage regardless if we are in perfect health or near death. This is an easy interaction to incorporate into the game and will give the game a more realistic feel. Additionally potentially giving some benefit to those that like to invest in toughness/recovery rather than pure DPS. Which will slightly tilt the game meta away from DPS.

Here is what I'm thinking.
Seems like the floaty numbers are based on every half a second in this game. So I propose.
The damage that is dealt during each half second is modified by the below parameters.

If HP is at 100% (perfect health, probably with help of shield bubble) at the beginning of that half second, DPS is calculated at 110%
If HP is >75% at the beginning of that half second, DPS is calculated at 100%.
If HP is >50% at the beginning of that half second, DPS is calculated at 90%
if HP is >25% at the beginning of that half second, DPS is calculated at 80%
if HP is <25% at the beginning of that half second, DPS is calculated at 60%

Now there is a DPS reason to not just keep your HP at a tick above OHKO. Also introduce a more intricate relationship between DPS and toughness/recovery. Additionally this opens the door for future skills that can counteract the weakening effect of being close to death.