A RPG element

[Cultusfit]

I don't think cuphead failed at all unless you were being sarcastic about it.

Oh, nope. I actually meant they OTHER company that SAID it failed.
Despite what people say about cup-head i think it is accessible to everyone, just not everything is open to everyone...
Been wracking my head about where this quote was from....I keep thinking it was from EVE back in day, which means they broke that rule now since they are trying to open it up to more causal players now...
Which makes me sad, cause now when the aliens attack and we have to get a bunch of 12 year old EVE players to control our orbital defenses they will be "average" gamers...boooo

[Rytrik]

The hardest game ever: http://www.foddy.net/Athletics.html

Try playing that on a Dvorak keyboard. -_-

[Travis | Support Mgr.]

The hardest game ever: http://www.foddy.net/Athletics.html

[Purple Potato]

I cant even remember who it was but the game hit pretty big...might have been something like dark souls....hang on i'll go try find it.....
sadly quote didnt bring anything up except people talking about Cuphead....*shrug* guess youre right they failed

I don't think cuphead failed at all unless you were being sarcastic about it.

[Cultusfit]

Must be a flop developer.

I cant even remember who it was but the game hit pretty big...might have been something like dark souls....hang on i'll go try find it.....
sadly quote didnt bring anything up except people talking about Cuphead....*shrug* guess youre right they failed

[Primus]

I read a interview with a game developer who had put out a really difficult game
"...not every game should be accessible to everyone ."

Must be a flop developer,as far as playerbase size is concerned at least.

[Cultusfit]

I plan to write a post soon on this exact topic. Basically make a lot more of the game variables be more than just some numeric input. More complex stat relationships will enrich and deepen the game. But sometimes I hesitate to put it all out there. Because a lot of ppl out there actually do prefer a game where the path is singular and need to be told what to do every step of the way.

I read a interview with a game developer who had put out a really difficult game
"...not every game should be accessible to everyone ."

[GrauGeist]

The current game meta is too simplistic thus giving the rise to cookie cutter builds. Because there is THE BEST way. And the difference between the best and next best is quite large. Thus everyone becomes carbon copies of each other. This is the natural consequence of having an unbalanced and rudimentary game mechanics core.

No, it's an issue of the developers not doing a good job of providing viable alternatives. There is nothing that could not be fixed by buffing or changing non-optimal items or sets to bring them up to par as an alternative. For example, it's obvious that Apprentice > Arcanist for Mage, but what if Arcanist advantages were further buffed? Then it might be viable.

Similarly, that BH >>>> Mage >>>>>>>>>>> Warrior. But again, it wouldn't be hard to buff Mage and Warrior, even SW to make them not suck.

[Arionthe]

I like where your thoughts head with this. I have always enjoyed high fantasy style games but in a contradiction enjoy them REALISTIC. With how fast computer are i've always wondered why there isn't more complex relationships between things. I have spent a ton of time playing D&D and hating the rules because it is just straight to the point, HP=-(x+y) if z>n
roll between 1-20

I have designed several systems that incorporated food/hunger, current hp, blood loss etc to make it all feed into things like concentration etc. It's impossible on pen and paper (man have you ever noticed how bad the average person is at basic math?) But a computer can take 200 variables roll some randoms and give a truly unique result.
It's really what led to my hobbies of unreal engine and such. I was wondering "how hard could it be?" (turns out the formula part is easy, it's all the other stuff that is hard...guess the budget goes to heavily to animators, and coders)

I plan to write a post soon on this exact topic. Basically make a lot more of the game variables be more than just some numeric input. More complex stat relationships will enrich and deepen the game. But sometimes I hesitate to put it all out there. Because a lot of ppl out there actually do prefer a game where the path is singular and need to be told what to do every step of the way.

[Cultusfit]

A missed opportunity for a lot of the RPG games out there is the fact we do the same damage regardless if we are in perfect health or near death. This is an easy interaction to incorporate into the game and will give the game a more realistic feel. Additionally potentially giving some benefit to those that like to invest in toughness/recovery rather than pure DPS. Which will slightly tilt the game meta away from DPS.

Here is what I'm thinking.
Seems like the floaty numbers are based on every half a second in this game. So I propose.
The damage that is dealt during each half second is modified by the below parameters.

If HP is at 100% (perfect health, probably with help of shield bubble) at the beginning of that half second, DPS is calculated at 110%
If HP is >75% at the beginning of that half second, DPS is calculated at 100%.
If HP is >50% at the beginning of that half second, DPS is calculated at 90%
if HP is >25% at the beginning of that half second, DPS is calculated at 80%
if HP is <25% at the beginning of that half second, DPS is calculated at 60%

Now there is a DPS reason to not just keep your HP at a tick above OHKO. Also introduce a more intricate relationship between DPS and toughness/recovery. Additionally this opens the door for future skills that can counteract the weakening effect of being close to death.

I like where your thoughts head with this. I have always enjoyed high fantasy style games but in a contradiction enjoy them REALISTIC. With how fast computer are i've always wondered why there isn't more complex relationships between things. I have spent a ton of time playing D&D and hating the rules because it is just straight to the point, HP=-(x+y) if z>n
roll between 1-20

I have designed several systems that incorporated food/hunger, current hp, blood loss etc to make it all feed into things like concentration etc. It's impossible on pen and paper (man have you ever noticed how bad the average person is at basic math?) But a computer can take 200 variables roll some randoms and give a truly unique result.
It's really what led to my hobbies of unreal engine and such. I was wondering "how hard could it be?" (turns out the formula part is easy, it's all the other stuff that is hard...guess the budget goes to heavily to animators, and coders)

[Arionthe]

If I could do 120, and now I can only do 100 or whatever, then everything is slower. Except I used to do 120. Why should my good DPS character be nerfed because other people couldn't be bothered to make a good DPS character? The fact that I made a good character should be rewarded. The fact that they didn't should be penalized.

If you want to do parity properly, you add new options. Not nerf existing charcters.

By your logic, be glad you didn't play when the highest trial levels were in the 1000's.

The current game meta is too simplistic thus giving the rise to cookie cutter builds. Because there is THE BEST way. And the difference between the best and next best is quite large. Thus everyone becomes carbon copies of each other. This is the natural consequence of having an unbalanced and rudimentary game mechanics core.

Let's make an analogy that you might appreciate. If all you know about math is just addition and were given a set of 5 numbers, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5. What do you think you will come up with? Yes you will come up with 15 and only 15.

The concepts and proposals I have suggested here and elsewhere is merely trying to enrich the game mechanics core/foundation. Thus using the above analogy, introducing concepts of subtraction, division, and multiplication to the rudimentary addition. Now even if given the same set of 5 numbers, 1,2,3,4,5, you can end up with many more varied and yet valid answers.

That's all I'm trying to do here. Variety is the spice of life. A game with longevity is one that's easy to learn and tough to master. You need depth for the game to have real longevity. Let's work on the tough to master part for Eternium.

[BAgate]

GrauGeist, I give up, we obviously think very differently. Its not that people can't be bothered to make a DPS build, but that they don't like that build or are bored with it. But my point was that whether you are at 120 or 100 doesn't matter, it is where you are relative to everyone else, so if everyone is at 100, why would only being at 100 be a bad thing? Led used to be at 2000 or whatever.

Purple Potato, I was just using that as an example, not a suggestion. But your argument boils down to a) its a little tougher for the 3 days at the very beginning and b) gear farming gets harder. I would argue that the first is easily addressed if needed by toning down normal mode in story, but that sacrificing a little in the first week to make the next year better is a good thing. And the second is just lazy. Not only is gear farming fa less important than it used to be (thanks celestials), but why should farming gear at trial 100 be easy?

As to style, I'm far from an expert, but I don't see that as being a big difference. They all want the same stats, put champion points in the same place, use the same jewelry, and spam abilities/attacks. If the only difference is how often you have to move an inch, or how many mobs you gather, I think that is rather trivial.

[GrauGeist]

If I could do 120, and now I can only do 100 or whatever, then everything is slower. Except I used to do 120. Why should my good DPS character be nerfed because other people couldn't be bothered to make a good DPS character? The fact that I made a good character should be rewarded. The fact that they didn't should be penalized.

If you want to do parity properly, you add new options. Not nerf existing charcters.

[Purple Potato]

I'm trying to understand this, because I really don't. Making the game 'harder' in a consistent and universal way would only mean you couldn't reach as high a trial level. You would struggle the same on, say, trial 100 as you would have on trial 120. How is this less fun? Wouldn't playing trial 100 be just as fun as trial 120 used to be? Or does the number really make that much of a difference? Please address my question from before. If the devs did a simple cut of all players damage by 50%, gameplay would not change one iota, players simply wouldn't be able to reach as high a trial level. Would you consider this 'less fun'? If so why?


We are not talking about making this rocket science. In fact, I would argue there is more rocket science involved right now (have you seen the threads about maximizing champion points or crafting perfect jewelry?). We are simply advocating some form of change which permits build diversity and different play styles. Something that would let a tank compete with a glass cannon, or make playing a BH feel different from playing a Mage. Something that will keep a player coming back because thee is more new things to try, not just because they love the grind.

I dont want to separate this into 2 parts of a quote but for the first paragraph, cutting damage in half would decrease the easiness of getting started in the game. Reaching trial 80 would take forever and would make it extremely hard to farm gear at trial 100.

BH is VERY different from mage and is more similar to Warrior. BH goes from p2p just like warrior and although warrior must tank everything and get up close, BH does the same only dodging and shooting. Mage needs to gather up a lot of mobs to have blizzard and singularity do their job in clearing the mob phase within 3-5 minutes while taking an extremely long time to kill the boss compared to BH. BH takes way longer on the mob phase and needs like 2-4 minutes to kill the boss (I dont know exact times as I haven't used BH enough or unlocked all it's slots for abilities, passives and minions)

[BAgate]

It makes the game harder and less fun, because you're taking things away from the player. Simple as that.

Change for the sake of change is a bad idea.

I'm trying to understand this, because I really don't. Making the game 'harder' in a consistent and universal way would only mean you couldn't reach as high a trial level. You would struggle the same on, say, trial 100 as you would have on trial 120. How is this less fun? Wouldn't playing trial 100 be just as fun as trial 120 used to be? Or does the number really make that much of a difference? Please address my question from before. If the devs did a simple cut of all players damage by 50%, gameplay would not change one iota, players simply wouldn't be able to reach as high a trial level. Would you consider this 'less fun'? If so why?

And it wouldn't be 'change for the sake of change', it would be change in an effort to expand the game. Right now, all classes play essentially the same. All builds are essentially the same (look at the top of the leaderboards). DPS is king. All of which means that there is one experience from playing this game. Most here enjoy that style, which is why they are here. But a) will you still enjoy that style in 6 months? and b) does everyone enjoy that style? Adding some real diversity would both help bring in new players and also help keep old players around.

Another thing is that while this makes the game more 'tactical' and 'strategic',not everyone has that intellect or seriousness to achieve the same.Simplicity is important for this game,so can't afford to make complex changes which can spin the heads of many as far as gameplay is concerned,regardless the said many are newbs or veterans.

We are not talking about making this rocket science. In fact, I would argue there is more rocket science involved right now (have you seen the threads about maximizing champion points or crafting perfect jewelry?). We are simply advocating some form of change which permits build diversity and different play styles. Something that would let a tank compete with a glass cannon, or make playing a BH feel different from playing a Mage. Something that will keep a player coming back because thee is more new things to try, not just because they love the grind.