To make Eternium eternal, Medal shoud be applied only for Season, not for ANB

[Arin]

Hi,
You are wrong. "Each medal of Glory" is NOT "equal to 5 levels". It is eventually equal to 0.5 levels. You are not considering decreased medal effect after 10th medal.

So, your statement, "a true comparison would be the medal holder going to CL 1500, while the non-medal holder reaching at least CL 1900, or perhaps the medal holder getting to CL 2000, while the non-holder reaches CL 2400" is completely wrong. It's not like that at all. Please check the basic facts.

[jcochran]

You seem to still be missing my point.
There's a 10 minute difference in both characters reaching CL 1500. But my question is:
What's the time difference in both characters reaching the SAME power.
So the medal holder reaches CL 1500. How long does it take the non-medal holder to reach CL 1500+X? Each medal of Glory is equal to 5 levels. Your test was about 80 medals of each type. So at a minimum, a true comparison would be the medal holder going to CL 1500, while the non-medal holder reaching at least CL 1900, or perhaps the medal holder getting to CL 2000, while the non-holder reaches CL 2400. And I haven't even gotten to the increased survivability, or increased DPS from the Life on Hit and Haste obtained from the Medal of Vigor.

As for diminishing returns, the Power attribute is the top of the list since it's the only attribute that keeps increasing. Life on Hit and Haste from the Medal of Vigor also suffer from diminishing returns, but to a lesser degree simply because there's less of it obtainable by any character. You get the 1000 & 400 from CL points, plus any that's on your gear and that's it. No more available.... Unless you have medals of Vigor. And those points are then a permanent bonus equivalent to some number of CL that actually INCREASES as CL increases. Why does it increase? Simple. The bonus remains fixed as you gain CL. But the benefit of higher CL decreases because of diminishing returns, so it takes more levels to gain the same benefit you have from the medals of Vigor grants you.

Edit:

I just got an idea as to how to test the effective difference between a medal holder and non-medal holder.
Namely, record when your character is first capable of clearing a specified TL under a specified time. Say place a time limit of 2 minutes for a Trial Level to be considered cleared. Then start running trials and create a table like
TL 10 - Medal holder time to reach - non-medal holder time to reach
TL 15 -
TL 20 -
TL 25 -
....
TL 100 -

Of course, for the lower trial levels, the champion is likely to skip them entirely. But the principle would hold for the higher levels. Another piece of information that would be useful would be to note the CL that was held at the time the TL was cleared.

Just realized that don't even need to know the timing if you want to determine the comparative power.

The real issue is determining when two champions have the same power with one champion having medals, while the other doesn't. This can be fairly easily determined. Assume two champions with CL 2000. Perform the following.
1. Pick a TL to clear.
2. Reset CL point assignments.
3. Assign CL points to champion and attempt to clear level. Repeat until level cleared under specified time. Then record the effective CL required. Do this for both champions.

With this method, you could easily create a chart of TL and the required CL for a medal and non-medal holding champion to clear. The difference between the required CL values would be a good indication of the actual effect that the medals have. Then if desired, it would be possible to level champions and time their leveling to see what the time required is for reaching any specified TL.

[Arin]

Hi,
I'm not saying there is no difference between zero medal and full medal account. The important here is, "Then, How Much is the gap?". That's why I did the test to know the answer, and my conclusion is the gap is not big enough to significantly change the ANB result.

Needless to say, as you mentioned, the saving time for xp farming increases as playtime increases (because full medal's bonus xp % and other stats are constantly higher than non-medal's). But again, the important here is "How Big is the gap at the end?".

As I posted, the time gap between zero medal and full medals is 10 min at CL 1500, and increases to 20 min at CL 2000. (and around 30 min gab at CL 2100). Since ANB event time is restricted to 12, 9, or 6 hrs, the achievable CL during ANB is limited to around CL 2100+. Therefore, the maximum time gap for xp farming during ANB is 20 min ~ 30 min. CL 2100 to CL 2200 takes ridiculously long to both full medals and non-medal, and nobody reached CL 2200 during ANB so far, so CL 2100 - CL 2200 range is relatively less important or meaningless for the comparison. Considering this, what a non-medal player can do is to do xp farming 20 min or 30 min longer than a full medal player does to reach the same CL, or to get 20~30 min's less CL. In both cases, the gap is not big enough to critically change the result. 30 min's xp farming increase only tiny CL at around CL 2100 no matter how many medals he has.

Now, the remained question is, "How about push?". I pushed both accounts during silver 17, and the gap I felt was not as big as I thought. As shown in my previous test, doing top 5 or top 10 in master league ANB without any medal is absolutely possible. What really matters is not medals but player's experience and skill. This test was done with warrior, but I'm sure it's the same to bh or mage.

PS 1: I have the most medals in the server, so my test is kinda the most extreme case. The gap might be smaller in most other cases.

PS 2: The medal effect sharply decreases after 10th medal. And even more after 50th medals, etc.

PS 3: I'm OK with nullifying medal effects during ANB. I was just curious how much it affects the ANB result, and that's it.

PS 4: There was one person who reached CL 2213 during bronze 17, but I excluded it from consideration because he was a cheater (turned out by data evidence).

[jcochran]

Your test data indicates to me that medals DO have a significant effect, and that the effect increases with increasing CL values. Let me explain.

For any combination of medals, the result is equivalent to X CL. The value of X is greater with more medals. But more importantly, X is a constant regardless of the CL level the character gets. This means that for any earned CL, the hero has an effective CL value of CL+X.
Now, I agree that with higher CL values, there are diminishing returns. But the XP (and therefore time) required to earn higher levels increases. So assuming that that having some combination of medals gives an effective CL level of 100. So a Champion with a CL of 0 has the effective power of 0+100 = 100. A rather significant advantage. When the Champion reaches CL 1000, his effective power is CL 1100. So someone without those medals would need to get to CL 1100 in order to match that power, and it takes more time to get there. When the medal winner gets to CL 2000, their effective power is CL 2100, and so on.

Now I agree that the difference in power between CL 2000 and CL 2100 is smaller than the difference between CL 0 and CL 100, but there is a difference.

If medals had a "minimal effect", then you wouldn't see an INCREASING savings of time between your reaching CL 1500 and reaching CL 2000. And there's an intellectual dishonesty in implying that a medal holder at CL 1500 and CL 2000 is equivalent to a non-medal holder at the same CL values.

[Arin]

한국분이시네요, 반갑습니다. 이 얘기도 꾸준히 반복적으로 제기되는 주제중 하나인데, 저도 궁금해서 같은 이벤때 메달이 전혀 없는 테스트 계정으로 한번더 똑같이 플레이해서 본계정과 비교해본적이 있습니다. (당시 본계정 메달 각 80여개, 서버 최다). 결론만 말씀드리자면 렙업은 챔렙 1500 도달시간이 10분차이, 챔렙 2000 도달시간이 20분 차이였고 최종 리더보드 순위는 메달없는계정 2위, 본계정 4위로 오히려 노메달이 더 높았습니다 (물론 두 계정 다 극한까지 등반하지는 않고, 등반때 느낌이 어느정도 차이가 나는지만 확인해봤습니다). 결과는 렙업 등반모두 결과를 바꿀만큼 크게 영향이 있지는 않았습니다. 토막메타때였고 지금의 6거인 메타라면 영향은 더 적습니다.

관련글을 포럼 디스커션 게시판에 올린적이 있어 링크 올립니다.

https://forum.makingfun.com/forum/eternium/a-new-beginning-anb/214140-full-medals-vs-zero-medals-test

This is a recurring topic, I was curious as well and once tested it during an ANB event with my test account with zero medal vs. main account with full medals (around 80+ in each at that time). The result was, in short, the difference was not big enough to change the result in both xp farming and push. With zero medal account, it took about 10 minutes longer than with full medals account to reach CL 1500, and 20 minutes more for CL 2000. The final LB rank was, zero medal was rank 2 and full medal was rank 4. (zero medal was higher, I just didn’t push going extremes with both accounts, just focused on how I feel the difference between the two accounts when pushing). So, the gap is not huge. It was cleave meta, and current 6J meta is even less affected by medals.

I posted this test on forum discussion before. Here is the link:

https://forum.makingfun.com/forum/eternium/a-new-beginning-anb/214140-full-medals-vs-zero-medals-test

[aQuaNowBan]

Cheer up 힘내요~

[김기현]

Perhaps I(We) should wait to see what is coming. Thanks for your comments, WarriorSeven (and Wispy 2.0 and jcoachran, too).

[WarriorSeven]

Yes, thanks jcochran, much better!

[jcochran]

Might want to rephrase #3 to
3) Masters League, where all players competing and ANY their toons are at Trial Level 120 and above.

And frankly, that part of ANY is something that I think should be changed. Reason is that there's a significant difference in skill sets between leveling ANB characters to clear TL120 and clearing TL120 with a permanent character that can have a far higher CL simply because it has accumulated XP over a much longer time span.

[WarriorSeven]

There's a point where frustration with a game's design becomes greater than the joy it brings playing it , and when reached, you have to ask yourself if you're better off doing something else. I for one am okay with the way the game is designed since I've learned to play within its rules, some I don't care for, but overall, it's still fun to play for me.

If you don't like an aspect of the game and would like to see a change, you can submit your case on the Feedback thread to garner additional support for your ideas from other players. On very rare occasions, if there is enough feedback and clamor for change, the Developers have been known to acquiesce. In your case that involves fundamental changes in game design, I really wouldn't expect any changes to this version.

We are all waiting, instead, to see what's in store with the new version of the game being rolled out. Perhaps the Developers have been listening to the MANY complaints and rants regarding medals and have come up with a better solution.

Until then, you can either hang in there and wait and hope for better things to come like the rest of us, or you can simply move on to other things. No sense playing a game if you're not having fun.

[김기현]

1. 오로지 메달을 획득하기 위해서 130층, 140층도 충분히 깰 실력의 플레이어들이 79층에서, 119층에서 타임어택하고 있는 게 과연 게임 구조상 바람직한가 하는 의문이 있습니다. 애초에 메달을 획득하려는 이유가 '더 강해져서, 더 높은 층으로 올라가기 위해서'라면, '메달을 따려면 올라가지 말고 계속 아래에서 골목대장하고 있어라'라는 것은 본말전도입니다.

2. 79층과 119층에서 부익부 빈익빈은 여전히 그대로입니다. ANB 마스터 리그에서 메달이 많은 사람이 더 높이 올라갈 수 있는 것처럼, ANB 컨텐더 리그와 ANB 베테랑 리그에서도 메달이 많은 사람이 같은 시간에 상대적으로 더 강해져서 79층, 119층을 '더 짧은 시간에' 깨고 높은 순위가 되어 또 메달을 획득하겠죠. 마스터 리그가 아니라고 해서 기회가 있다는 것은 환상입니다. 거기에서도 역시, 메달을 더 많이 가진 플레이어가 새로운 ANB의 메달도 가져갈 가능성이 매우 높습니다. 그 사람이 마스터 리그로 올라가면 이제 그 사람은 마스터 리그의 유리천장에 부딪히는 거고, 그 사람이 올라가지 않고 버티면서 계속 메달 수집하면, 그 뒤에 들어온 뉴비가 유리천장에 부딪히는 겁니다.

3. 한 번 상위 리그에 진입하고 나면, 이제 다시 하위 리그로 돌아갈 수 없습니다. 그러면 마스터 리그에서의 부익부 빈익빈은 여전히 존재하죠. 오늘(2023년 3월 7일) 마스터리그 새로 진입하는 사람이 시즌이 아닌 ANB에서 실력으로 현재의 마스터리그 랭커들을 제치고 위로 올라갈 수 있는 가능성이 있다고 보십니까? 저는 그렇게 생각하지 않습니다. 신규 가입자들은 이터니움에 그냥 그저그런 등수로 존재하려고 가입하는 게 아닙니다. (실제로는 모두가 하이랭커가 될 수는 없지만 적어도) 하이랭커로 가는 사다리를 치워 버려서는 안 됩니다. 그러면 잠재적 신규 가입자들 중 상당수는, 노력으로 등수를 올릴 수 있는 다른 게임으로 가게 될 것입니다.

4. 컨텐더, 베테랑, 마스터 리그로 나누어 놓은 것은, 구조적인 문제(신참이 노력으로 위로 올라갈 수 없게끔 하는 유리천장)를 근본적으로 해결하는 방법이 아니라, 단지 시한폭탄의 타이머만 조금 더 연장시켜 놓은 보조적인 완화수단입니다. 근본적으로 120층 이상으로 올라가는 사람이 점점 많아질수록, 마스터 리그에서의 상위 랭크 진입 기회 차단 문제는 점점 더 커질 것입니다.

다시 말씀드리지만, 지난 레벨이 계속 누적으로 이어지는 '시즌'에서는 메달의 차이를 실력과 노력으로 상당 부분 커버할 수 있고, 역전할 수도 있습니다. 그런데 제한된 시간 안에 만들어 낸 성과를 평가하는 ANB에서 이미 앞에서 출발하고, 심지어 더 빨리 달리는 사람을 역전한다는 것은 불가능한 이야기입니다. 이것은 단순히 '주장'이 아니라, 현재 실제로 진행되고 있는 일입니다. 아메리칸 드림처럼, 'Eternium Dream'이 가능해야 합니다.그래야 뉴비가 지속적으로 이민 옵니다.

1. There is a question of whether it is desirable in the game structure that players who certainly can ascend the 130th and 140th floors doesn't clime them and just have a time attack on the 79th and 119th floors only because of getting medals. If the reason for winning a medal in the first place is to be 'stronger, to go higher', 'If you want to win a medal, don't go up and keep being the leader of the alley from below' is a contradiction.

2. On the 79th and 119th floors, 'the gap between the rich and the poor is getting bigger' problem is still the same. Just as a person with more medals in ANB master league can go higher, a person with more medals in ANB Content league and ANB veteran league will break the 79th and 119th floors in a shorter time and win another medal. It's a fantasy to have a chance just because it's not a master league. the higher ranks (and the medals) still goes to the players who already have more medals. If the high ranker in Contender or Veteran league goes up to the Master league, now the player hits the glass ceiling of the Master league, and if he or she doesn't go up and continues to collect medals, then Newbie, who comes after him or her, hits the glass ceiling.

3. Once you've entered the top league, you can't go back to the bottom league. Then 'the gap between the rich and the poor is getting bigger' problem in the master league still exists. Do you think there is a possibility that a newly entering player today (March 7, 2023) in the master league can go up beyond the current master league rankers only with his or her skill(in ANB, not in Season)? I don't think so. Newbies don't enter Eternium to be just normal-rank. They should be able to dream higher. Otherwise, plenty of potential Newbies would go to other games where they can dream to be higher rank.

4. Dividing players into contenders, veterans, and master leagues is not a way to fundamentally solve structural problems, it's an auxiliary mitigation measure that only extends the timer of the time bomb a little bit longer. Essentially, as more and more people go up to the 120th floor, the problem of blocking top-ranked opportunities in the master league will grow.

Again, in the "season," where the last level continues to accumulate, the difference in medals can be covered by skills and efforts, and rank can be reversed. But in ANB, which evaluates achievements made in a limited amount of time, it's impossible to reverse someone who's already starting ahead & even faster by buff. It's not just an argument, it's actually what's going on. Like the American Dream, 'Eternium Dream' should be possible. That way, Newbie will continue to immigrate.

[WarriorSeven]

There are plenty of opportunities to win medals for the new player. First off, the game is designed with 3 competitive levels:

1) Contenders League, where all players competing and ALL their toons are at Trial Level 79 or lower;
2) Veterans League, where all players competing and ALL their toons are at Trial Level 119 or lower, and finally,
3) Masters League, where all players competing and ANY of their toons are at Trial Level 120 and above.

For a new a player starting out, you play the game, develop your Toon's gear, and compete in Trials for the best times within the League limits above. All "newbies" start in Contender League where you will compete with other Eternium players in that level for the best Trial complete times in order to win a medal. It's that simple. As long as you stay below Trial Level 80, and have the best (or one of the best) complete times, you'll win a medal. To successfully compete, you must have some decent knowledge of gameplay, the best gear you can equip your toon with, and interacting with all the games particulars and enemies.

As you become more experienced (or bored) with that League, you can advance to the next level Veterans League where you'll be competing with more experienced players who are at Trial Level 119 or lower -- again, the level applies to all your toons you use or have in reserve.

Finally, when you're more experienced or bored with Veterans League, you can advance to the Masters League at Trial Level 120 and beyond, where you'll compete with the best players on Eternium.

So, the game affords a new player MANY opportunities to win medals in the lower leagues, as long as you stay within the Trial Level limits stated above -- and COMPETE for the best Trial times. By staying in the lower leagues, you can spend as much time as you like their to learn about the game, gear, story mode, daily quests, acquiring recipes for new gear, trying a different champion, how to right the bosses and their minions, etc., etc., etc. -- that is, learn everything about the game you can.

Once you feel more comfortable in the competition aspect of the game, you may want to try your hand competing against more experienced players. Therefore, the game allows you to progress at your own pace -- and still win medals even if you are a newbie!

I'd be more than happy to see a new ANB style event with no medals carried to the event character. If there remained the same split between the 3 leagues I doubt there would be any difference in the leaderboard in the Veterans league - I know I can farm just as many Champion Levels and then push just as far with a no medal character as I can with a highly decorated character in ANB.

I think the problem the OP is referring to relates to the lower leagues where people are deliberately sticking around to amass medals and not progress beyond TL119. In those cases a large hoard of power stacking medals might be more of an issue since it becomes a race to clear TL119 as fast as possible.

[김기현]

메달을 수십 개 '이미 가지고 있으면' 워리어세븐님 말대로, ANB에서 도움이 됩니다. 그런데 그 메달을 뉴비가 어떻게 따냐고요...100미터 달리기에서 고인물들은 이미 (메달 효과로) 10미터 앞에서 출발하고, 심지어 달리는 속도(경험치)도 메달 효과로 플러스 보정을 받는데, 뉴비가 무슨 수로 메달을 땁니까? 뉴비가 파란색 메달, 하늘색 메달 한두 개 획득할 때, 상위권은 빨강 노랑, 초록, 보라, 하늘, 파랑 메달을 싹쓸이하면서 훨씬 더 가속도 붙어서 달려가는데? 지난 ANB들에서 상위권 멤버가 사실상 고정멤버인 것이 기록으로 다 나와 있는데, 그걸 외면하고 뉴비에게 '열심히 하면 너도 할 수 있어!' 라고 말만 한다면, 그건 기만이고, 그 기만에 속을 뉴비도 없습니다. 이미 페이스북, 인스타그램을 가진 저커버그가 '야 나도 바닥에서 시작했어! 너두 열심히 하면 나를 이길 수 있어!' 라고 말하면 제가 믿겠습니까? 이미 굳어진 분야에서 온갖 버프를 이미 받고 있는 선두주자와 경쟁하느니, 다른 초기 신생분야를 찾아서 가겠죠.

As you(WarriorSeven) said, dozens of medals are helpful at ANB. But how does Newbie get those medals? In the 100-meter dash, existing participants already starts 10 meters ahead(by medal effect), and even the speed of running (the rate at which experience is gained) is adjusted (by medal effect), so how does Newbie win a medal? When Newbie wins one or two (blue or sky blue) medals, the top ranks run much faster, sweeping red, yellow, green, purple, sky blue, and blue medals. In the past ANBs, the record shows that the top members are actually fixed, and if you turn a blind eye to it and just say to Newbie, "You can do it if you work hard!" it's deceitful, and there's no Newbie to fall for it. Would I believe it if Zuckerberg, who already has Facebook and Instagram, said, "Hey, I started on the floor, too! You also can bite me if you work hard'? Rather than competing with a leader who's already getting all kinds of buffs in a field that's already solidified, Newbie's going to find another early new field.

[WarriorSeven]

Sorry, I for one think you have the reasoning backwards. Having medals for a new ANB toon IS an incentive to play in the ANB's.

Medals do and can help during the INITIAL game start for a brand new ANB hero that has little ability to contribute to damage, toughness, and recovery from hits -- the initial gear available is low level and poor quality. So, for THAT reason, especially if you regularly compete in the ANB's, having lots of medals at the start of a new ANB game with a new hero will HELP help your ANB toon progress a bit faster, at least initially. However, this effect diminishes quickly as your progress the game levels, though, and then you are forced to develop good, effective gear for your champion.

It has been proven time and time again that medals, in general, do little to increase your regular or permanant hero's attribute levels during normal gameplay (5-starring, season, etc.). The contribution by a medal's attributes are simply swamped by the MUCH larger effects of Champion Level plus high level gear (L77) attributes.

Personally, I view medals as providing a useful boost (crutch?) for a new toon to get off the ground running more quickly during each ANB. Otherwise, they simply accumulate by the experienced player for the game's so-called honor and glory (and boasting).