To make Eternium eternal, Medal shoud be applied only for Season, not for ANB

[LodWig]

[...] hey say, "Oh, damn it, I can't do it. I'm actually not good at it, but other players are even ahead of me. How can I catch up with that?" And they quit the game.

So let's give them all the rewards they want, because they don't want to do any effort to earn them? By learning and working to hone their skills? What kind of competition is that?
And by the way the game can be enjoyed without the competitive side of it. If you play it for the Leaderboard, but don't want to put any effort in climbing it, I honestly don't care whether you quit or not.

[김기현]

'스킬이 중요하다'는 말씀도 맞고, '메달의 차이는 스킬로 극복할 수 있는 수준이다' 라는 말씀도 맞습니다.
단, 전제조건은 '꾸준히 이터니움을 플레이해서, 스킬을 능숙하게 갖춘 플레이어'라는 전제가 붙습니다.

뉴비는 당연히 스킬이 없습니다. 녹룡이 독 쏘면 고렙처럼 와리가리로 피하는 게 아니라 그냥 독 이빠이 맞고 죽는 거에요. 뉴비는 스킬이 아니라 생명력으로 버팅기면서 파란장판 나올 때까지 안 죽고 버텨야 그 층을 깨는 겁니다. (제 경험담이기도 하죠) 따라서 뉴비에게는 힘 수치가 얼마냐, 생명력이 얼마냐, 공생, 신속이 얼마냐 하는 스탯이 엄청 중요해요.

그 '재미없는 구간'을 참고 견뎌서 위의 분들처럼 100위, 50위, 그리고 마침내 랭커가 되면 그 때는 스킬이 메달보다 중요하겠죠. 하지만 뉴비의 90%는 거기까지 안 가고 초보 단계에서 '아, 젠장, 못해먹겠다. 안 그래도 못 하는데, 다른 플레이어들은 나보다 출발선이 앞에 있기까지 하네? 저걸 어떻게 따라잡아?' 하고 게임을 접습니다.
게임이 월급 주는 직장도 아니고, 뉴비가 '아씨, 또 죽었네.' 라고 굳이 스트레스 받아가며 그 노잼구간을 견뎌야 할 이유가 있을까요? 세상에 재미있는 것들이 넘치는데.

랭커가 아니라 스킬 없는 뉴비의 입장에서 생각해 주시면 좋을 것 같습니다.
뉴비가 없으면 게임도 없고, 따라서 랭커도 없습니다...
이터니움 플레이한다고 월급 줄 게 아니라면 뉴비에게 '노오오력'을 요구하면 안 되고, 뉴비가 '재미있어서' 자발적으로 찾아 오도록 인프라를 만들어 줘야 합니다.


It is true that "skill is important," and "the difference in medals is a level that can be overcome by skill."
However, the prerequisite is that 'a player who is skilled by steadily playing Eternium'.

Newbie, of course, doesn't have skills. If a green dragon shoots poison, Newbie doesn't avoid it with skill like a high-level, but just dies after being poisoned. It's not a skill, but a life force, and you have to hold out until the blue pad comes out to break the floor. (my experience,too.) Therefore, the stat of how much strength, vitality, recovery per attack and haste are very important for Newbie.

If you endure the "unfun section" and become 100th, 50th, and finally a ranker like the above, skills will be more important than medals. But 90% of Newbie's players don't get there, and at the beginner level, they say, "Oh, damn it, I can't do it. I'm actually not good at it, but other players start ahead of me and even their running speed is faster(by medal effect). How can I catch up with that?" And they quit the game.
The game is not a paying job. Is there any reason why the newbie player has to endure the no-fun section under stress? The world is full of other fun things.

I think it'd be more nice if you thought about it from Newbie's perspective, not from the ranker's point of view.
Without Newbie, there is no game, so there is no ranker...
If you're not going to pay Newbie for playing Eternium, you shouldn't ask for "haaard effort" from Newbie, but you should create infrastructure so that Newbie comes voluntarily 'for fun'.

[LodWig]

[…] considering that each trial is has the mobs somewhere between 3 and 4 percent more powerful.

Foes get 10% more life and deal 4.5% more damage per trial level, multiplicatively. Slightly less up to TL 37.

[jcochran]

Even something as little as 5% is significant. I would figure that to be about 1 or 2 trial levels, considering that each trial is has the mobs somewhere between 3 and 4 percent more powerful. So in the big picture, 5% may not sound like a lot, but it is a consistent inequality in ANB events and the OP has a good point about the long term viability of the game. Optics matter, and the medals do not give a good look to the game.

The last bronze, I got TL 110. Could have gone further, but since the next reward was at TL 120, there was no good reason to spend the time. The most recent silver, I only played about 5 hours due to RL restrictions.

At the moment, still earning glory for unlocking various pieces of equipment.

[Arin]

I see. Believe it or not, CL 135 gap at CL 2000 is not that critical as you think. So don't be too obsessed with "CL 2135". The way how you play is much more important.
Well, you will know it someday as you play this game more. Good luck.

PS: So, it sounds like you are struggling with passing TL 120 during ANB?

[jcochran]

My most recent ANB character was Eric in the Veteran League. It will of course be deleted upon completing 5 stars, or when I need an empty slot.

I'm not happy with Making Fun's policy of putting an account into Master League when the account has ANY character reach TL 120 since I believe it's a quite different skill set to level a character fast enough to clear TL 120 during an ANB event with limited time versus what is effectively unlimited time to level and gear up for clearing TL 120 during a season event.

Yes, I understand diminishing returns and agree that the difference between CL 1000 and CL 1135 is more significant than the difference between CL 2000 and CL 2135. But I disagree that the difference between CL 2000 and CL 2135 is insignificant. And the time required for a non-holder to get from CL 2000 to CL 2135 is greater than the time for the same non-holder to get from CL 1000 to CL 1135. Hence my statement that the time savings increase with increasing CL levels.

[LodWig]

I'm not a discord member and haven't found an active invite on the forum.

Join us!

[Arin]

Jchochran,

We are almost there. Now you know 80 glory is not 800 power but 180 power, and (hope) you understand medal's influence decreases as higher CL value is reached.

So my point is NOT non medal player can reach exactly the same stat or DPS of full medal player by extra CL. My point is such gap is not that critical for push at around CL 2000 ~ 2100, and a player's experience and skill is much more important for push at this point. If achievable CL during ANB is limited to kinda CL 100, full medals might be a game changer. But at CL 2000 ~ 2100? Nope. This is what I confirmed from my zero medal test.

From this discussion, I realized that many beginners maybe don't know that medal effect sharply decreases after 10th medal, as you didn't know it. I undersrand 80 glory medals might look scary to non medal players if they think it is equal to 800 power. But it's not at all as you see. (The same to other medals)

May I ask your toon name and league?
& Please feel free to ask further question, if you have any.

[jcochran]

Thank you for posting the medal values. I'm not a discord member and haven't found an active invite on the forum.
As for 80 Glory, from you figures, that's equal to 90 CL. The Vigor medals also add to effective DPS via haste as well as survivability vis life on hit. Any CL equivalency would be an estimate and I think an additional 45 would be reasonable (I suspect 45 would be low since the total size of the haste pool is limited unlike that for power. That smaller pool means that the points contributed via medals is impacted to a lessor degree by diminishing returns). So a real comparison would be the time difference between the medal holder reaching CL 1500 vs the non-holder reaching CL 1635. Same for the CL 2000 going against CL 2135. These are simple comparisons between two champions getting to approximately the same DPS and survivability so as to be capable of clearing the same TL in about the same time. I have to consider your previous timing trials to be lowball figures since they're checking for equal CL values and not checking for equal DPS/survivability since the scoring criteria for ANB events is not what CL you reach, but instead what TL you clear and how fast you do it. I'm not taking into consideration the straight time savings you get from the knowledge medals, but I'd estimate that at about 5% (20x XP vs 21x XP).

[Arin]

I attach LodWig's table showing the actual medal values for those who are not Eternium Discord members.
Thank you LodWig.

[Arin]

Hi jcochran,

Sorry but you are wrong again. The time saving is actually decreasing.

0 to CL 1500 requires about 11.4B xp, which took 1h 3 min with full medals and 1h 13 min with zero medal. (10 min longer with zero medal)

CL 1500 to 2000 requires about 32.6B xp, which took 1h 19 min with full medals and 1h 29 min with zero medal. (10 min longer with zero medal)

CL 2000 to 2100 roughly requires about 63.4B xp. It took 2h 11 min with full medals and 2h 23 min with zero medal. (12 min longer with zero medal)

So, the achieved xp amount is getting larger and larger for same 10 min gap between full and zero medal. This means it takes shorter and shorter time gap for same xp amount. In other word, the time saving for xp farming between full medals and zero medal is decreasing as higher CL values are reached, which is the opposite to your statement.

If you understand this and want to keep going, please let me know. Let's go to next stage. Or if you still don't understand this, please feel free to ask me.



PS 1: 80 glory medals give you 180 power (while only 10 glory medals give you 70 power). Please see LodWig's table (LodWig's link above or my attachment below).

PS 2: For your reference, my whole point will be, in short, if medal effect contributes 5 % to ANB result, the player's skill and experience does much more than 95 %. This is not "intellectual dishonesty" at all, but with all my honesty I swear.

PS 3: If you still feel the gap is too huge, just try to get around 10 medals each. It will dramatically reduce the gap. If it is difficult for you to get 10 glory medals, then it is not because you don't have enough medals, but because your skill and experience are not good enough yet. Nullifying medal effects during ANB will not change your ANB result that much, if you are struggling with getting red medals while somebody does rank 2 with zero medal.

[jcochran]

Bojck,

Yes, Arin has mentioned that test in this thread.
But Arin's test is for a medal holder and non-medal holder to reach the same CL. Not to reach equivalent power between the medal and non-medal holders. And even with that short coming, his tests indicate that medals DO NOT have a minor effect at higher CL values. If the effect was minor, the time savings would DECREASE over time as higher CL values are reached, but his tests indicate an INCREASING time savings. And frankly, an increasing time savings is exactly what I would expect. Because a medal holder has an effective additional X added to their CL. So for example, a medal holder reaches CL 2000, while a non-holder needs to reach CL 2000+X in order to have the same power and theoretically clear the same TL. And since the XP required for each CL increases with higher CL levels requiring more XP. As an example, let's assume that X is 100 for some combination of medals. The difference in time between CL 100 and CL 200 is rather minor. But the difference in time between CL 1000 and CL 1100 is greater. And of course, the difference between CL 2000 and CL 2100 is even more.

[LodWig]

The only concrete information available is what I can see in game itself and for that, I can only see that getting my first Medal of Glory will net me 20 Power, which is equivalent to 10 CL

You can see the medal counts and corresponding values of other heroes on the Leaderboards. Select a hero, click on the medal stripe (above the companions), click on each medal.

There is a table showing the actual medal values on the Eternium Discord server there
(I'm sorry I can't post it here on the forum, it's too big.)

[bojck]

jcochran Arin has already done the experiment with a new account with zero medals in ANB - as I remember he finished 2nd with the zero medal account and 3rd or 4th with his real account (80+ of each medal at the time).

It's just that when you know what you are doing there's more than enough time in ANB to reach high CLs and craft good gear. And in the end 300 CLs don't make a big difference, because that's only ~10% damage, which is just 1 trial difference

[jcochran]

Then how about helping me cure my ignorance?
Information on the attributes available via medal is rather rare on the internet. Using Google gives me rather uninformative things such as "Players can obtain 6 different medals during A New Beginning event based on their ranking in Trials leaderboards. Each medal is given to the player after the event is over. Players gain various buffs on their all heroes when activating these medals. They are eternal and last forever.", which is effectively useless. The only concrete information available is what I can see in game itself and for that, I can only see that getting my first Medal of Glory will net me 20 Power, which is equivalent to 10 CL.

Now, you've stated that the values of medals drop off after 10 of them and currently, new medals are only worth half a CL or a single point of power. Assuming the drop is instant upon reaching 10 medals, that means at a minimum 80 Medals of Glory is equal to 135 CL. And 135 CL is not insignificant and my point still stands. A champion with medals upon reaching CL 1500 is equal to a non-medal holder reaching CL 1635 and it takes significantly longer for a non-holder to reach CL 1635 than a holder takes to reach CL 1500.

And as for curing my ignorance. Can you provide the following information?
How many medals of each type do you currently have and what attribute values do those medals provide? I know that would be just a single data point, but I suspect it will drive home the increased DPS and survivability that medals provide and show that the benefits are not "minimal", especially during a time limited event.