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Set Gear Balance Changes...?

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    As you broke the news about removing Bischool damage from the game there are some things to add to my post. I will also address the issues brought up about my calculations in the SOFT change.

    In my previous post I stated, that my ideas apply, if you will not remove bischool. It was because SCR set is so close to beam only because of that. Im not here to say that you should revert the decision, because removing bischool may give the opportunity to address the real issue of the build. But without those changes it will fall far behind beam.

    The part SCR mage has always struggled is the single target dps. For big clusters of mobs, it has more than enough. So changes have to be made in a way, that there will not be any boost to Event Horizon dmg, while helping the single target part.

    When we break down the dmg on boss, then currently in the game within a 7 minute bossfight, the dmg of Arc Lightning and Incinerate are equal. In 8 minute bossfight, incinerate will pass AL by 25%. After removing bischool, the dmg of incinerate will be cut in half, meaning that AL will have to get at least a 75% dmg boost to fill that gap.

    Also we have to take into account, that incinerate is a shoot and forget skill. Meaning, that as long as its stacks on the mob, it will do its damage regardless of your actions. It will benefit from all your buffs and procs 100%. While AL isnt like that, it requires you to cast it, to do damage and as the mobs get harder and harder, there is less time to stand at one spot and cast. That is the reason I think that the buff to AL dmg should be at least 75%.

    There are a few options, what could be done to boost AL damge.

    1. Increase Lighting Struck - this would boost overall nature damage and we dont want that
    2. Increase Arc Lightning base damage or BOM dmg modifier - That has the risk to affect also other builds in an unpredictable way
    3. Increase the dmg modifier on SCR 4 piece bonus - This is the best approach IMO. It would target only AL dmg and it would be only SCR speciffic.

    So how much to increase it?
    Currently it is 1000%,
    If it was 2000%, then the dmg increase to AL would be 90%,
    If it was 1800%, then the dmg increase is 72%

    I believe that the answer to this lies between that range 1800% - 2000%

    Here is the math part for AL dmg.
    Although all the dmg in that equation is multiplictive, we could look only at the dmg modifier difference:

    1000% is a modifier of 11,
    1800% is a modifier of 19 (100x(19/11-1) = 72%
    2000% is a modifier of 21,(100x(21/11-1) = 90,9%

    But for anyone interested, the full equation is this:
    Currently: 1,85 (AL base modifier) x 2 (BOM) x 11 (SCR 4 piece) x 2 (Lightning Struck) = 81,4
    1800% : 1,85 (AL base modifier) x 2 (BOM) x 19 (SCR 4 piece) x 2 (Lightning Struck) = 140,6
    2000% : 1,85 (AL base modifier) x 2 (BOM) x 21 (SCR 4 piece) x 2 (Lightning Struck) = 155,4

    Now about the Arcanist dmg modifier math issue:

    I suggested to change the +400% overall dmg to +400% arcane dmg and it was brought to my attention, that this will actually nerf the dmg. I dont agree with that. Lets look at the equation:

    400% dmg SOFT would look like this: 1,93 (+arcane dmg on gear) x 2 (Lightning Struck +100% more arc dmg taken) x 5 (400% dmg from SOFT) = 19,3
    400% arc dmg SOFT would look like this: 5,93 (+arcane dmg on gear and SOFT) x 2 (Lightning Struck +100% more arc dmg taken) = 11,86

    By this we see that my idea really is bad. But we did not think about other +dmg modifiers in the game, if paradox will have 60% more dmg as I suggested, TW has 60% and, GC has 20%, PI has 40%. So it is a total of 180% more damage. Lets add it to my previous equations:

    400% dmg increase would look like this: 1,93 (+arcane dmg on gear) x 2 (Lightning Struck +100% more arc dmg taken) x 6,8 (400% dmg from SOFT and 180% from other sources) = 26,25
    400% arcane dmg increase would look like this: 5,93 (+arcane dmg on gear and SOFT) x 2 (Lightning Struck +100% more arc dmg taken) x 2,8 (180% dmg increase from other sources) = 33,2

    Now we actually see that this would be a major buff to the dmg and it would also make those dmg buffing skills more worthwhile for the build, because with +400% dmg from SOFT, their effect was heavily dilluted​.

    And I will also remind why it is a good idea to turn the SOFT dmg to arcane.

    First, it will buff the deflect dmg, because deflect is affected by only 2 things, characters power value and + arcane dmg. No weapon dmg or any other +dmg modifier affects it.

    Second, it will remove the possibility to use the set with frost or fire skills. If all skills will add charges, then using arcanist for beaming would be a nobrainer. More toughness and a bit more than double the dmg ELR has.
    Last edited by Heikki Gross; 04-24-2023, 07:14 AM.


    • Guest's Avatar
      Guest commented
      Editing a comment
      Hopefully the lobbying works out as a feature, dual-school damage opens up more variety in builds.

    • Heikki Gross
      Heikki Gross commented
      Editing a comment
      Travis | Support Mgr. For the sake of build diversity and maintaining the existing balance between zap and beam, I would say that it is great news.

    • LodWig
      LodWig commented
      Editing a comment
      What if I were to tell you all that I'm lobbying to make multiple elemental damage types a feature instead of a bug...?
      That is very nice of you. And an elegant way of dealing with the bug: just acknowledge that it's what players want instead of going against them.

      And as I said in the Discord server: forbidding bischools is not a good way to foster build diversity.

    People dual classing with Warrior for XP farming during ANB is a huge disadvantage for people purely playing the other classes. The previously listed suggestions for improving damage and playability are certainly worth consideration unto themselves but, and this will make me extremely popular, an easy change is to prevent CL from carrying over between classes during ANB, or, just block any new ANB toon from inheriting the accumulated CL. The leaderboards are set up as class rankings, restricting the competition to the individual classes would immediately provide greater balance and make the game more competitive.


    • ReigorMuerte
      ReigorMuerte commented
      Editing a comment
      I would very much like to see the other builds improved. I'm just saying that in order to be successful as a mage or a bh it shouldn't be required to play warrior first. I think we agree on that?

    • Gargos
      Gargos commented
      Editing a comment
      I agree dual classing disadvantages single class players, but there is another aspect to consider. Bronze and Silver ANBs are pretty long time-consuming events. Playing two different classes makes it more interesting, can break the monotony. Perhaps a compromise formula could be found, e.g. a dual-class player able to carry across 50% (or whatever percentage is fair) of accumulated CL.

    • Heikki Gross
      Heikki Gross commented
      Editing a comment
      Tin Man it is better than beam for ZAP, but nothing beats warrior farm so far.

    I suppose I can't fault our more experienced experts in taking advantage of the dual-classing concept with the current "rules", but I'm no a fan. It's simply too nuanced and easy for a new (dare I say experienced) player who forgets or f***s up and cross-pollinates class gear resulting in a ban, which I consider quite unfair. Sorry, but the current situation here seems like a trap of sorts for those. I'm sure this is NOT the intent, but there is that perception ...

    I would much prefer gear set(s) and/or gameplay get repaired to reflect the cleanest builds possible that follow intended operational rules rather than allow some user (by savviness or by happenstance) to uncover some flippin' obscure, mis-programmed, "almost exploit(?)" that was never REALLY intended but is now a feature. The app developers and testing teams, therfore, should be accountable for first-class design, testing, and execution from the get go, while assuming responsibility for corrections, necessary to ensure our toons behave according to the documented statistics while running gameplay logically!

    There is certainly nothing wrong with any user assisting in application testing and reporting back issues for repair! Right? But if an unintended and/or undocumented feature remains in gameplay, it seems to me, at least, its existence smacks of a serious disadvantage to any new or UN-savvy player unable, unwilling, or unaware on how to use it. We really don't have a level playing field now, do we? Where, then, guys and gals, do we otherwise draw that bright line between an intended feature and an unintended exploit permitted to remain?

    There is nothing new, here. It's what separates a good (but buggy?) application from a world-class application running smooth as silk. And while I believe the future for Eternium is to strive to develop and distribute world-class products, I for one look forward to game and lingering issue fixes, as has been stated as a goal by John Welch | CEO previously.​
    “Fall down seven times, get up eight.” – Japanese proverb


    • Travis | Support Mgr.
      Travis | Support Mgr. commented
      Editing a comment
      I totally misread "dual classing". ::facepalm::

    • WarriorSeven
      WarriorSeven commented
      Editing a comment
      No worries Travis. You're still the BEST Mod I've ever encountered, anywhere!

    • Bali_Lenni
      Bali_Lenni commented
      Editing a comment
      If technically possible, could it be a solution to make all gear ,that was crafted by a previous toon inside the current ANB, non_usable to following ANB toons but keep it usable once the ANB event is over (for home toon) ?
      Or simpler version: within 1 ANB if a player deletes a toon and creates a second toon, all gear from toon 1 becomes unusable... ...or something like that ...which would make accidental or non_accidental gear advantages from dualing or multi_tooning simply not possible and therefore avoid all problems on that theme...

    Please keep:
    1. Multielemental damage (and make it official\not-exploit) 2. Dual_Classing

    Why? : more options = more fun !

    on point# :
    1. Some builds in some situations can profit and some will perform worse, hence a nice option to have and test what works best. It has already become "normal' to use it for many players.
    2. Pushing with mage (can not speak for BH), dual classing is a great option. Farming and push_set_crafting is just so much more enjoyable. Even though xp and resources are likely (though not necessarily) to be better than with single class farming, there are also downsides like expense and extra work\real_life_time to balance out the upsides. My suspicion is, that in the end, LB performance is not that greatly dependant on dual classing, especially for the most competent players and for the less competent players it can provide a litlle boost at added expense if so desired. Like everything it also takes time to learn the ins and outs and make dualing worth it (very true for Gold ANB). I do understand that it somehow contradicts the ANB spirit in the sense that you are not playing one hero from zero to end, but it makes ANB much more enjoyable and lessens the grinding pain of farming and crafting..

    ...just an oppinion of course and I can completely understand those in favour of single classing

    Backyard FireLily (gloriosa superba)
    [ BrokenGarm , LenniGold , LenniXP ]


    • Travis | Support Mgr.
      Travis | Support Mgr. commented
      Editing a comment
      1. This is already happening in the next update (probably early May).
      2. Why do you say to "keep" dual classing. Has anyone said it's going away?

    • Bali_Lenni
      Bali_Lenni commented
      Editing a comment
      1. great news !
      2. ...just had the impression that some players would like to have it abolished and just wanted to voice a counter-oppinion


    As a Warrior, I'm a bit upset by the recent update which only focuses on the other two hero classes. On second thought, the team might be overloaded with the schedule trying to make everybody happy.

    As observed, the Warrior Class set builds are very much dependent on Critical Chance when it comes to pushing. Newer players are having difficulties in playing those builds because of toughness issues and their newbie reflexes when it comes to pushing high trials. Newer players prefer this build for ease in crafting & a straightforward push set & enchants thru reforging.

    The following are my suggestions for the set gear balance for Warriors using a Fire Lily. With the recent boost from Fire Lily, a 6Fury Lily might be able to reach TL150+ with the following set adjustments.

    Fury Set Gear (6Fury)

    1. 2 Set bonus: Storm of Swords deals 25000% Weapon damage each

    2. 4 Set bonus: Tornadoe damage increases by 25000% Weapon damage

    3. 6 set bonus 5000 Power for 6 seconds

    As a compromise to these changes the following will be adjusted for balancing the 6F crit.

    1. Reduce Charge Critical Rating buff to 1200 (Lvl10)

    2. Reduce leap(10) bleed DoT to 2000% & reduce damage to 1000% Weapon damage

    3. Reduce MS buff of Fleetfooted to 10%
    Last edited by adolf_2003; 05-18-2023, 01:27 PM.


    • Tin Man
      Tin Man commented
      Editing a comment
      v1.6.6 was not a set gear balance change update but a fix some bugs update.

      The comparable adjustments for warriors would have been resolving the warrior issue with Shockwave on Windows/Steam. I have not heard anyone indicating that this issue has been resolved.

      Any plans for balance updates are still out there.

    Personally, I prefer a new build than doing the current META (6J) which is against my perception of a Tanky Gladiator. Map shopping destroy the fun of my gaming. 6J can't even kill a single summoned archer in a ToS cycle. The reason I prefer a different META Tin Man


    • Tin Man
      Tin Man commented
      Editing a comment
      That v1.6.6 was not a balance update still holds true.

      If you are not interested in having the warrior bugs fixed? That is fine.

    The SW bug is a PC issue.


    • Tin Man
      Tin Man commented
      Editing a comment
      Did not say it was not a Windows/Steam issue.

      Just saying that the warrior analog to the hunter and mage patches is the Shockwave issue. There may be other issues like that with warrior. Shockwave is the only one that I know of off the top of my head.

      You are upset that they patch bugs that impacted hunters, mages and the Fire Lily. That is fine. They did not do any rebalancing.

      Making Fun did low-hanging patches to known issues. Many, if not most, players appreciate that longtime known issues are being addressed.

    I'm glad they did something to address those issues, what I wanted is for them to address everyone's issues. In the announcement, Shockwave bug isn't included in the recent patch.

    Current warrior Meta (6J) is giving us wrinkles than enjoyment, opposing to what is commonly perceived as the Tanky Warrior, its like a BH doing a melee. We need that Shield Warrior update or a 6Fury Lily as a diversion to 6J. Nobody like map shopping, and we've been discussing this at Discord for months. Now that its up, there's nothing for Warriors.


      I shield warriors. In every game I play I use a close combat fighter with a shield. I did have a question about block and armor. Both my black and armor are over 100%. How is this possible to block over 100% of incoming damage. Is there a cap to block % when using a shield or damage reduction due to high armor rating?


        Only thing a defender shield Warrior need is autocasting deadly throw each second with 6 pieces of gear instead of cast after successful block(I've posted in what would u change topic a huge post)


          I currently use the Brooch of the Stormcaller and the Brooch of Vampirism on my Mage, wish that the Stormcaller Regalia Gear would craft with equal or greater stats than the Arcanist gear that I am currently wearing.


            I have been thinking about this particular balance issue for a while... And i think its perfect. I'm not as good as lots of other players... So I'm thinking you should give me lots of sweet gear and +500 stuff. Because its not fair that other people are better than me. I mean... Its not really my fault that I don't have as good hand/eye coordination. Thats genetic! So i deserve a boost!
            Waddaya say Travis? Can I get some level 78 gear to offset my genetic negatives? Maybe just one little +50,000 CD bracer? Eh?
            Last edited by sciencebzzt; 08-06-2023, 05:37 PM.


              3 lives then your dead, possibly earn an extra life (maybe) that will stop all those climbers who have upwards of 10 deaths, Dying really shouldn't be a good thing and should not benefit one in any way! .... Game Over ... wa wa wah..


                Some builds use strategical dying
                Backyard FireLily (gloriosa superba)
                [ BrokenGarm , LenniGold , LenniXP ]


                • laffcarl
                  laffcarl commented
                  Editing a comment
                  Exactly, seems a bit wrong

                • Bali_Lenni
                  Bali_Lenni commented
                  Editing a comment
                  ⚡️ ☺️ :-)


                As a shield Warrior, I'd offer to change charge(using 6 defender set), making it second needed skill(After shield block). Charge should be replacement of whirlwind - its ur main skill ATM for pulling mobs - otherwise it does nothing than pulling, decreasing enemies damage by very little, and heals you with 2 pieces defender set - its just a very good supportive spell but globally it isnt a musthave spell. It's used mostly because of whirling storm belt - 2 sec CD refresh is too powerful for shield Warrior - u tank huge pack of mobs so u need strong heal = u cast more WW and battle rage(both heals you with 2 pieces Def set). While juggernaut has 2 main spells(Shockwave and devastate), fury has 3 (charge leap WW) shield Warrior has only one - shield block,but have 2 sources of damage - DT from shield block and shield slam from passives.
                I suggest charge be this way - charge doesn't increase crit chance and doesn't stun enemies, it gains a effect of whirlwind(pulls enemies) for 5 seconds and plus to that, charge gives buff for 5 seconds - increasing ur deflect rating and INCREASING ENEMIES ATTACK SPEED by significantly decreasing their attack damage(maybe this stat should be scaled of your haste), I guess no need to explain that - shield Warrior have to be hitted more often to deal damage. And charge should have 3 stacks like shield block. As for belt I'd remake deadly throw belt in favor of charge or shield block - every 5th deflected or blocked hit reduces cooldowns of all skills by 1 second.
                And of course rebalance deflect for shield Warrior - I don't understand why it's done to mage - he is a ranged DD, he doesn't need to be hitted like shield Warrior.
                Also deadly throw should use bigger part of shield armor scaling - if i am right DT deals 2000% weapon damage plus 100% of ur shields armor, I suggest to make 1000% weapon damage and 500% shields armor damage.
                Also raise up shield's base armor to 2181(now its 1939 - the same as sword's minimal damage). I looked at weapons medium damage and it's 2181, maybe do the same for shield?
                77 mace damage is 2084-2278= medium damage is 2181
                77 sword damage is 1939-2424= medium damage is 2181, 5
                77 axe damage is 1551-2811= medium damage is 2181
                This is what capable shield Warrior right now, struggling with Kara, but if I beat her I can beat up to 158, shield Warrior is struggling against Kara and garm
                UPD 2
                Actually,the same could be done to WW(what I wrote about charge) give buff for deflect and increasing enemies attack speed by lowering attack damage much more
                Attached Files
                Last edited by Shinori; 08-31-2023, 01:54 PM.