A RPG element

[Rytrik]

Perhaps I come from a different mentality around gaming... I'm just not seeing the logic in nerfing the player's damage when they're low health. There's no benefit NOW to being at low health (besides in the Elban fight), and it would cause even more frustration in players who might take some damage. All of a sudden, your damage goes down SIGNIFICANTLY and you're struggling to LoH or pot/apple your way back up to 100% hp. There goes your trial.

There are other games which do it the opposite: by staying at a lower HP level, your damage goes UP, or you gain extra skills. That way there's a payoff for being at the lower health: You CAN do more damage... but on the other side of it, you might die quickly. It's a gamble. It's similar to Elban's assassinate. You can dodge it and do regular damage, and not take bleed damage, or you can eat it and gain 5% extra damage per assassinate, but you take bleed damage for the rest of the fight. You choose.

[Arionthe]

It annoys me that you capitalized power and ability rate but not critical rating Arionthe :/

Congratz on 116 btw. Yep I was doing that to get a rise out of BHers.. but caught a Mage instead. haha

[Arionthe]

As always, I support Arionthe's ideas 1000%.

Thanks brother, with your vote.. oh wait we are not in an election... But a good fight is always worth fighting even if a losing cause.

[Primus]

Perhaps I come from a different mentality around gaming... I'm just not seeing the logic in nerfing the player's damage when they're low health. There's no benefit NOW to being at low health (besides in the Elban fight), and it would cause even more frustration in players who might take some damage. All of a sudden, your damage goes down SIGNIFICANTLY and you're struggling to LoH or pot/apple your way back up to 100% hp. There goes your trial.

There are other games which do it the opposite: by staying at a lower HP level, your damage goes UP, or you gain extra skills. That way there's a payoff for being at the lower health: You CAN do more damage... but on the other side of it, you might die quickly. It's a gamble. It's similar to Elban's assassinate. You can dodge it and do regular damage, and not take bleed damage, or you can eat it and gain 5% extra damage per assassinate, but you take bleed damage for the rest of the fight. You choose.

So much this,besides this idea increases the gap between PC and mobile,as players on mobile will find it more difficult then players on PC to avoid getting hit.The precision advantage of PC will get amplified due to this by many times.And this mechanic mostly favors boring builds and renders many current builds unusable.

[Arionthe]

Perhaps I come from a different mentality around gaming... I'm just not seeing the logic in nerfing the player's damage when they're low health. There's no benefit NOW to being at low health (besides in the Elban fight), and it would cause even more frustration in players who might take some damage. All of a sudden, your damage goes down SIGNIFICANTLY and you're struggling to LoH or pot/apple your way back up to 100% hp. There goes your trial.

There are other games which do it the opposite: by staying at a lower HP level, your damage goes UP, or you gain extra skills. That way there's a payoff for being at the lower health: You CAN do more damage... but on the other side of it, you might die quickly. It's a gamble. It's similar to Elban's assassinate. You can dodge it and do regular damage, and not take bleed damage, or you can eat it and gain 5% extra damage per assassinate, but you take bleed damage for the rest of the fight. You choose.

I actually see your point. It's always a battle between realism and playability. That's probably a reason why such a system is so rarely seen in any RPG.

The goal of my suggestion is not to foster untold player frustration. But rather re-introduce strategic retreat as a gaming element. So I'm low on health and I'm not as effective as I like to be, what do I do? You can keep banging your head and stand your ground only to be grinded down by the coming waves of mobs. Or remember the saying Discretion is the better part of valor.

anyway also makes healing skills play a more prominent role in the game. Again all my suggestions seem whacky in isolation. But they are meant to be taken together. I already laid out what my end goals are. These suggestions are just some small building blocks towards that.

[Arionthe]

So much this,besides this idea increases the gap between PC and mobile,as players on mobile will find it more difficult then players on PC to avoid getting hit.The precision advantage of PC will get amplified due to this by many times.And this mechanic mostly favors boring builds and renders many current builds unusable.

Well Primus, that is only because I haven't really laid out my visions for mage in its entirety. To be honest I find it odd that a highly specialized, many years in the training magic wielder confronts the hordes of Eternium in much the same way as a brutish warrior. By that I meant using flesh and blood as means of defense.

So the Devs are changing Arcane Reflection. May I suggest the following skill as an replacement. Also an innate class specific skill.

Innate Class specific skill: Mystic Shield
Mage has the innate ability to create a damage absorbing shield around him/herself (PC baby).
Stats: 100% HP shield when initialized, max 150% HP, Recovery stats feed into the shield absorbing power, duration 6 secs. CD 30secs If shield collapses, mage takes 50% HP damage as an arcane energy feedback.
Any shield proc will add 10% HP to shield strength while refreshing the duration.

Arcane Shield: to replace Arcane Reflection
Stats: Years of learning has allowed you to enhance the strength and power of Mystic Shield, 150% HP at start, Max 300%HP, any shield proc adds 20% HP to shield HP, duration 8 secs.

With this powerful defense mechanism in place, a mage should really never worry about blocking a mundane arrow or two. Besides this feels more like a powerful magic user.

[Rytrik]

Well Primus, that is only because I haven't really laid out my visions for mage in its entirety. To be honest I find it odd that a highly specialized, many years in the training magic wielder confronts the hordes of Eternium in much the same way as a brutish warrior. By that I meant using flesh and blood as means of defense.

You don't even play a mage. Why are you laying out your vision for a class that you don't play?

[Arionthe]

You don't even play a mage. Why are you laying out your vision for a class that you don't play?

That's because, despite often repeated accusations about me, I'm not really a shrill for SW. In fact I'm pretty class agnostic. I always liked RPG type of games. All my eterninum toons used random name generator except for my mage. I have a soft spot for it. Besides I just want classes to be distinct and different.

[BAgate]

Perhaps I come from a different mentality around gaming... I'm just not seeing the logic in nerfing the player's damage when they're low health. There's no benefit NOW to being at low health (besides in the Elban fight), and it would cause even more frustration in players who might take some damage. All of a sudden, your damage goes down SIGNIFICANTLY and you're struggling to LoH or pot/apple your way back up to 100% hp. There goes your trial.

There are other games which do it the opposite: by staying at a lower HP level, your damage goes UP, or you gain extra skills. That way there's a payoff for being at the lower health: You CAN do more damage... but on the other side of it, you might die quickly. It's a gamble. It's similar to Elban's assassinate. You can dodge it and do regular damage, and not take bleed damage, or you can eat it and gain 5% extra damage per assassinate, but you take bleed damage for the rest of the fight. You choose.

Actually, this would create a similar dynamic to the second scenario you point out. Right now the prevailing model is to have just enough HP to avoid one shot and then enough LoH to heal yourself to full health in an instant. More points in vitality/armor are useless, more points in power/haste/etc are always good. If Arionthe's proposal was adopted it would create a situation where more points in health would increase damage by reducing the damage penalty for being at low health, creating more than one way to build. You can create a tank that does constant lower damage or a glass cannon that does high initial damage but watches it plummet whenever you're hit until you heal. Tweak the heal mechanism and you get all kinds of possibilities.

[GrauGeist]

Perhaps I come from a different mentality around gaming... I'm just not seeing the logic in nerfing the player's damage when they're low health.

Maybe he wants the game to be harder for the player? One big hit = low damage = low LOH = dead!

[Rytrik]

Maybe he wants the game to be harder for the player? One big hit = low damage = low LOH = dead!

There needs to be a payoff for the game being harder. Just having it be harder for the sake of harder is generally not a draw for players.

[GrauGeist]

The only way it works is if you get XP bump proportional to damage drop. Even then, the farming slows, so it's not good.

[Rytrik]

The only way it works is if you get XP bump proportional to damage drop. Even then, the farming slows, so it's not good.

And this change hurts new players. There have been times when I've survived a fight by the skin of my teeth, with no consumables (or all of them down) at low life. With the changes being proposed, I might not have lived, or the fight might have taken WAY longer. So you're punishing the character for taking damage. In the low levels (and even going up) it's often extremely challenging to avoid all damage / not take any damage.

New player enters the game... starts playing... they hit a mob for max damage. Their hp lowers... it's taking longer and longer and longer to kill the mob. They die. Pissed off new player.. game stickability is gone.

[Arionthe]

And this change hurts new players. There have been times when I've survived a fight by the skin of my teeth, with no consumables (or all of them down) at low life. With the changes being proposed, I might not have lived, or the fight might have taken WAY longer. So you're punishing the character for taking damage. In the low levels (and even going up) it's often extremely challenging to avoid all damage / not take any damage.

New player enters the game... starts playing... they hit a mob for max damage. Their hp lowers... it's taking longer and longer and longer to kill the mob. They die. Pissed off new player.. game stickability is gone.

Not necessarily. Recall many things work differently when it's low level. For example skill CD is vastly reduced at low levels. So there is nothing to say that this Power/AR/CR reduction vs. Health feature be turned off for anyone not yet lvl70. A very surmountable issue.

Plus why do you expect to play exactly the same way if the proposed changes are actually incorporated. First you will have more trade offs to consider when building your character and gearing up. Second strategic retreat will actually become part of your overall play. We the players are adaptable. After every balancing patch, don't you change your gear/skill loadout some to reflect the changes in the game? This will be the same thing. Just another change. What we need to consider is if the benefits of the said change will outweigh the drawbacks.

Pros:
1. More trade offs in build design means multiple paths to achieve a similar aim (See BAGate's post)
2. More realistic, more relatable to every day life. As much a ARPG can be relatable.
3. Promotes build diversity
4. Promotes strategic positioning and re-positioning during a fight

Cons:
1. Need to think more about how to build a toon
2. Need to think more strategically while playing
3. just need to think more

Plus there is more tied to the whole DPS/Taking Damage meta. As I wrote in a previous post in another topic, I find the current game meta to be wildly imbalanced in favor of DPS already. This will tilt the meta a bit. Also there is a lot more to class distinctiveness when we go down this path.

Current game meta makes no distinction amongst classes on how damage is taken. It's all blood and body parts flying. This makes no sense. While that's expected for a brutish warrior, why should a highly trained magic user take an arrow the exact same way a barbarian would? Using his bare skin and flimsy robe.

For Mage: HP should be that last line of defense when all else fails. The all else is where the mage shines. I'm talking about mana shield in D2. A generic damage shield that absorbs all incoming damage until it collapses. Make this the primary defense mechanism of the mage, not hp.

Warrior: current system is fine. He ain't going for the prettiest face or smoothest body trophy. Oh btw 50% innate Damage Reduction because half of his pain nerves have long fried from years of getting banged on the head.

Bounty Hunter: dodging and evading damage should be the calling card. Smoke Screen does some of that. But what about a backflip move like the archer minion. That should be the innate skill. While backflipping, BH enjoys 90% damage reduction, leaves a doppelganger in the original position that draws enemy fire for a few brief moments.

There are so many possibilities. Don't close to those just because it makes you step outside of your comfort zone.

[GrauGeist]

Obvious con is obvious - this is a significant net nerf to all players and needs a major compensatory buff to be viable.